Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football (Rated Project-class)
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Olympic footballers

Hi. As part of my ongoing work to create biographies on Olympians, I've now created a stub for all the missing footballers. If you're intrested, you can find the full list here. I went the squad lists for each Olympics (example), and completed the red links for those with biographies on Sports Reference. The caveat is that I've not gone through every single existing blue link to ensure it's the right person, but if you spot anyone who is missing, I'm more than happy to create a stub for them (drop a note on my talkpage). Likewise, if I've created a stub and the subject already exists (different spelling, etc), then I've no problem if you want to merge/redirect to the earlier article. Or, if you prefer, drop me a note and I'll do the work on that too.

Now football is my least favourite sport (please put your pitchforks down), and as a result, I know next to nothing about individuals and teams. So any questions about confusion between two players are probably best left to this talkpage, and not mine! And lastly, thanks to @GiantSnowman: for some early guidance. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 19:17, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was I under the impression that for men's football, playing at the Olympics didn't grant notability to players as it's not classed as senior international matches as the squads are largely U23 players (unlike women's Olympic football, which is full age teams). This is certainly how I recall things going at AfD when this has come up. Number 57 20:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
They pass both WP:NFOOTY and WP:NOLYMPICS. Specifically NFOOTY says
Players who have played in, and managers who have managed in any Tier 1 International Match, as defined by FIFA, in a competitive senior international match at confederation level regardless of whether or not the teams are members of FIFA, or the Olympic Games. Spike 'em (talk) 21:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
From 1992 on, Olympic men's football matches haven't counted as full internationals due to the age limits. Hack (talk) 05:41, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
There is no doubt they pass WP:OLYMPICS, and I'd read WP:NFOOTY to read as:

Players who have played in, and managers who have managed in:

  • any Tier 1 International Match, as defined by FIFA,
  • a competitive senior international match at confederation level regardless of whether or not the teams are members of FIFA, or
  • the Olympic Games.
Jack N. Stock (talk) 05:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
In order to came out from the grey area, better pass both WP:NFOOTY and WP:GNG. As i remember some US Olympics footballer, as they were playing college soccer at that time, were consider not passing NFOOTY (or GNG all together). Matthew hk (talk) 06:16, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the question, Number 57. Per the replies above, they all pass WP:NOLY. I know you have different criteria for N:FOOTY, but I think they pass that as well. If it helps, many of the biographies I created had multiple links to other langauge wiki articles, and the ones I looked at, had a wealth of information in their respective languages. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 08:16, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
It's been long-established that competing at the Olympics - as footballer or other - grants notability. GiantSnowman 09:11, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
May be i messed my memory of early 2010s arguments then. Matthew hk (talk) 16:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
I'd agree you could fail WP:NFOOTY but still pass WP:NOLY. SportingFlyer talk 09:12, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
And to be clear, NFOOTY does not apply to Olympic qualifying, correct? (e.g. Football at the 1976 Summer Olympics – Men's qualification) S.A. Julio (talk) 10:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@S.A. Julio: if they were considered full international matches, then they would count under WP:NFOOTY. Hack (talk) 17:40, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

James H. Logan

On making some edits regarding Raith Rovers players in the McCrae's Battalion article, I noticed that the listing of James Logan linked to the wrong player. The player in question is team captain James H. Logan (the "H" being given as Henry in some references to him), not, apparently, the same individual as Jimmy Logan (footballer) (James Merrilees Logan) or James Logan (defender, born 1885) (James Lochhead Logan, who coincidentally later managed RRFC). Logan is the only one of the Rovers players not to have a linked article, particularly puzzling as he was the captain and the only info I can find regarding him is of him simply in various lists of his comrades. I'm not particularly au fait with using football resources and wondered if anyone here could unearth material with which to create an article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I've just noticed that the info that James Lochhead Logan was the post-war manager is not cited so this may in fact be a misattribution of our man James H's later career. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:49, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
And perhaps James Logan (forward, born 1885) is part of the picture. The article appears to only cover part of his career and no middle initial is given. Seems like a bit of straightening out between the 3 or 4 individuals is required... Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:01, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes most of the career of James Logan (forward, born 1885) (he only played as a CF for Bradford City, most of his career he was CH, RH or LH) is missing 1906-1909 Chesterfield, 1909-1912 Bradford PA, Raith Rovers 1912-1916. James Henry Logan born 17-10-1885 (I'm not sure where, sources don't agree) had two spells as a Raith Rovers manager. He also managed Wrexham (January 1937 - May 1938). Outside football he sold candy, tobacco and managed a hotel. He rose to the rank of captain during WW I. Cattivi (talk) 22:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
So the attribution of the manager's post to James Logan (defender, born 1885) is incorrect and it should be to James Logan (forward, born 1885), the latter being the James H. Logan we are looking for? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:22, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
Yes, and the link in [[1]] is wrong as well. Cattivi (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
As you have the sources for this, would you be able to address it please? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:30, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
@Cattivi: If you don't have the time to do it yourself, I can update him from Joyce, Stuart Basson's Chesterfield site and newspaper sources. The only thing mentioned above that I couldn't source are his selling sweets and tobacco. Also, do you have a convincing source for when he was a St Bernard's player? Joyce, ENFA (the free-to-access bit) and presumably the Bradford City book say he was one, but newspapers both English and Scottish have Bradford City signing him from Edinburgh Myrtle straight after the Junior international at the beginning of April 1905, in which he played CF. So when could he have been at St Bernard's, a senior club? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
An article in the Dundee Evening Telegraph 9 February 1932 page 8 mentions his candy shops in Kirkcaldy and five years as a hotel proprietor in Kirriemuir (between his two spells as Raith Rovers manager). Not sure about St Bernards, you can find it in Emms-Wells Scottish league players' records as well. I also found him the 1939 register living in Amersham, still in the candy business, also selling tobacco and owning a restaurant. (yes this is a primary source) Cattivi (talk) 11:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
That's great @Struway2:; did you find evidence linking him to Raith Rovers as player, captain and/or manager? Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Player and both spells as manager, yes. Captain no, but you said above that some James Logan was the captain, so I assumed you had a source for that? The other thing I can't do is his Raith playing stats, keep thinking about buying a suitable source for early Scottish players but never actually do it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:48, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
I have an additional source, Litster's Record of Pre-War Scottish League Players. He has James Henry Logan (17 October 1885, Dunbar - 7 June 1961, Edinburgh) as having played for St Bernards, Bradford City, Chesterfield, Bradford PA and Raith Rovers, followed by management stints with Raith Rovers and Wrexham. Jimmy Logan's career is as on his wiki page. James Logan (defender, born 1885) is Queen's Park, Aston Villa, Rangers and St Mirren, plus his international stats, no management career. Beatpoet (talk) 11:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Captain was his final rank in the army. You can use the Dundee Evening Telegraph article for this as well. Cattivi (talk) 11:54, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

These might also help, A is a book by David Ross that details James H Logans career including Raith player, soldier, Raith manager and Wrexham manager; B is a similar discussion to this one 5 years ago on the Scottish League forum. That also mentions a possible confusion with another J Logan who signed for Bradford City from St Bernard's at the same time as James H, although it may be the same player and just a spell at St Bernard's between Myrtle and Bradford? This source C, a self published effort, states that a James Logan at Bradford was the brother of Peter Logan who won the cup with them, but haven't seen those linked in other sources when you'd think it would be a good bit of trivia: war hero brother of cup winner, maybe a Bradford expert could confirm if their club signed two J Logans that year or not, if not it probably is all the same player, he seemed to play a few positions. There's also this daft thing here D and a photo with the other Raith mccraes players here E. I would definitely be moving manager stuff from the Rangers player to the Bradford player ASAP. Crowsus (talk) 12:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not the only one that was bothered by the Myrtle/St Bernards inconsistency, then... But all sources follow James H Logan consistently through from Bradford City via Chesterfield to Raith Rovers player soldier and manager, which is what we were looking for proof of. And the Dundee Telegraph article reckon he's the same chap who played in the Junior internationals, so who are we to worry? There are contemporary newspaper sources for Peter Logan being a brother of James Logan of Chesterfield ex Bradford. thanks, Struway2 (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
That's good news then, could you please add that ref to the expansion of his bio at some point, then it could also be added to that of Peter (along with the blog ref which I thinking would be fair enough to include as long as other sources back up the main fact of them being related?) Crowsus (talk) 16:11, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Have done (to both articles). Feel free to re-add the blog. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. The source that our James Logan was team captain is this article in the online version of the Kirkcaldy newspaper; sorry for any confusion@Struway2:, I wasn't looking for evidence that he had been captain, just that the JL we were homing in on was confirmed as the one who had been captain, from the choice of JLs on offer. I think I saw his captaincy mentioned elsewhere too; I'll try to dig it out. @Cattivi:, I've only had a brief search for the Telegraph(/Tully) archives with no joy so far but I'll try again later. Does it require subscription? Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I've started expanding James Logan (forward, born 1885) from the sources supplied by everyone here and have tagged it as {{under construction}}. Mainly as an excuse for leaving unsourced stuff in temporarily. Please feel free to join in. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The James Logan who played for Bradford City - from the Frost book - LOGAN JH (CF) born Dunbar 1885 joined from St Bernards in April 1905, left to join Chesterfield in August 1906 (all page 401); he is James H Logan with 5 league apps (1 goal) in 1905–06 season, no cup appearances (all page 385). GiantSnowman 12:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I think the reference in the Fife Free Press here to Logan being team captain may well be doubtful, quite possibly confusion with his army rank and particularly as it is not repeated in this article, already mentioned above, of only two days later.

A bit of a tangent but a related one: it dawned on me that the James W.M. Gourlay noted to be standing on the right of the photograph in these newspaper articles and in the same shot in the war memorial at Starks Park, (in Commons here:[2]) is in a distinctly different uniform and is not noted in the newspaper articles as being among the seven Raith players who joined McCrae's battalion, all of whom are listed in the corresponding wikipedia article on the unit. Gourlay's uniform and cap badge appear to be that of the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, which would seem to match him with this Imperial War Museum listing. The photograph in the latter article apparently shows him wearing a football jersey. Was he another Raith player, hence his inclusion in the photograph or is that inclusion an aberrration or have another significance? With the great work you've all done regarding Logan, I'm hopeful somebody can turn up the answer. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:15, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

A bit more digging has produced this, this and this which might give some leads. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I’ve been doing a bit of word of mouth research and it seems that James/Jimmy Gourlay was a well-known figure but so far I have only found a couple of references to him in reliable sources. He is not either of the footballing James Gourlays with existing articles; they are far too early. This Jimmy Gourlay did indeed play for Raith Rovers and was later the club’s chairman. Outside of football he was a primary teacher and was head of Auchtertool School in the 1920s, also, later I believe, head of St. Monans School, then head of the North School in Kirkcaldy, retiring in the late 50s, probably 1958. He was also provost of St Monans and provost of Kirkcaldy. Hopefully some useful material about him exists that could establish an article. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Naming

Now that we have a month of birth for James H. Logan, I'd suggest renaming James Logan (forward, born 1885) and James Logan (defender, born 1885) to use birth month rather than playing position to disambiguate. Neither man played predominantly in the chosen playing position used: both played mainly in the half back line. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. GiantSnowman 13:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
But according to the page text, the defender was born in 1884, so shouldn't it be (footballer, born 188x) as appropriate? Spike 'em (talk) 14:23, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Even better. GiantSnowman 14:26, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, and well spotted. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
Though the DoB was only changed recently, and the 2 web-based sources differ (AV have DoB 1885, and QP 1884). Do any of the book sources provide any information on this?Spike 'em (talk) 14:47, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
I've been looking online for half an hour for anything more conclusive online with no joy. I did find this, a discussion on whether James L., Tommy Logan and Alec/x Logan (no article as yet, might sound do myself, there is enough for me a stub at least) were brothers (yes), but I know I can really use that as a source although some of it is appears to extensively quote bio details from a book including the fact of Alex and Tommy being related. The only thing I really have separately is this Villa profile for Alec which says James is his brother, and a profile for James vice versa. There is also this, a commonwealth graves profile for James Lochhead Logan who died aged 24 in 1947, son of a man with the same name resident in Birmingham. That would tie in with James Snr's link to the Villa earlier in life and would make the 1958 Worcester date seem more plausible, though no more so than returning to his hometown and dying a few months after his son. But I'm very much surmising and supposing a lot of that. Hoping someone with access to papers or other archives can find some thing definite on his life and hopefully something on the siblings, that forum thread definitely indicated there was something to go on, though it didn't confirm where that info came from. Crowsus (talk) 17:16, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
It's stuff like this that convinces me that people who claim to have drawn up their family tree accurately for umpteen generations might well be deluding themselves...
  1. The 1911 Census transcription lists James Lochhead Logan as a 26-year-old professional footballer living in Sutton Coldfield. If correctly reported, recorded and transcribed, that age is compatible with a late 1884 birthdate but not with August 1885. His wife was named as Agnes Muir Logan, so the JL Logan who died aged 24 in 1947 is definitely the son of JL Logan the footballer.
  2. FreeBMD lists the death of Agnes M Logan in Oldbury, Worcestershire, aged 68, in 1954.
  3. The Probate Calendar confirms this was Agnes Muir Logan and that probate was granted to her husband, one James Lochhead Logan, publican. So in 1954, JL Logan would appear to be alive.
  4. Speculation section: The only likely candidate I can find after that date is also on the Probate Calendar, a James Lockhead Logan resident of a nursing home in Worcester, death date 25 September 1968 (listed under 1974 probates, one wonders why it took five years to settle). But I couldn't find him on Findmypast or FreeBMD, so no DoB/age at death. That might imply he didn't die at home in England. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
You can find him on Scotlandspeople.gov.uk He was 84 years old. His death was registered in Johnstone in Renfrewshire. Cattivi (talk) 10:43, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
So you can... when I had a Scotlandspeople account years ago, I'm sure you couldn't even search without credits, so I never bothered trying. Hey ho. Shows him born in 1884 in Barrhead and Levern district, as well... thanks, Struway2 (talk) 12:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
It looks like way to deep in conducting own WP:original research on interpreting the raw data. Matthew hk (talk) 13:40, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Respectfully @Matthew hk: you do that all the time with financial records of Italian clubs...pot kettle black? GiantSnowman 13:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
@GiantSnowman: direct c&p the profit value is fine, as well as paraphrase the wording in secondary source. But looking at his wife and deduce the identity of his husband, should be the work of journalist. Matthew hk (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Don't think that where a pair of full and unusual names are consistently available together in sources, it takes any original research to declare them the same people. Both the 1911 census and the 1954 probate calendar list Agnes Muir Logan explicitly as the wife of the then living person James Lochhead Logan, and the ages given for Mrs Logan are consistent with each other. As, according to Cattivi somewhere up above, they also were on the 1939 Register. If the names were more common, or didn't follow together through the sources, I'd agree with you. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Sorry, strike reference to wrong bit of conversation. Struway2 (talk) 14:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Primary sources should be avoided as much as possible. But that doesn't mean you should copy everything secondary sources write. If primary sources don't agree at all with secondary sources, the least you should do in my opinion, is not mention the information from secondary sources. If you do use information from a primary source, it should be clear from an explanatory note. Combining news reports can go horribly wrong as well. I don't think everybody will agree that everything a newspaper writes is a secondary source, it can be a secondary source is probably more accurate. In August a large part of the career of Bill Julian was removed and with good reason. Although Bill Julian trained a lot of clubs in the Netherlands, in most cases it wasn't the former Arsenal captain, it was his son Joseph William Julian, best known as Bill Julian, who had no significant career as a footballer in England. ["SPORT IN ENGELAND". "Limburger koerier : provinciaal dagblad". Heerlen, 07-04-1934. Geraadpleegd op Delpher op 14-11-2018, https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010349611:mpeg21:a0255] This interview is pretty clear. Bill Julian went to an Arsenal game in 1934. 'My father as a former captain still gets free tickets' If you don't know there were two trainers with that name, it might look well referenced, but actually it isn't. Cattivi (talk) 17:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
So, can we rename them? Suggest James Logan (footballer, born 1885), maybe with new redirect at James Henry Logan and the other guy James Logan (footballer, born 1884), maybe with new redirect at James Lochhead Logan? I can confirm successful searches for birth and death certificate links using JL Logan's full name (you only have to buy the scan for the exact date, the list shows the year which is what we need for the article title and I would say doesn't stray too far into OR since the QPFC ref already said 1884)...?
PS total irrelevant additional information info here, while I was looking for JL Logan and family, one of the few people with his middle name is the poet Liz Lochhead, and the reason my searches kept suggesting her was because not only was her husband's name Logan, but his first name was Tom, the same as the footballer brother of James. Weird coincidence. Crowsus (talk) 00:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Current international squad ordering

Hi all, I recently saw Danielmordor (talk · contribs) re-order the Luxembourg national football team (and other) current squad to be sorted by number of caps. I originally put it in following the order of the press release both by local press and the local FA - alphabetical - and this appears to be the standard across the various FAs and their press releases. Looking at the Manual of Style for national teams, I don't see anything noted about ordering criteria here, so I'm wondering if there is already a consensus for this, or if one needs to be decided? Cheers, --Philk84 Talk Contributions 15:56, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Ordered by position and then alphabetically. GiantSnowman 16:05, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, unless the squad is for a tournament for which squad numbers are assigned (i.e. the World Cup or a continental championship, not qualifiers), in which case they should be sorted by position and then squad number. – PeeJay 16:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, shouldn't it be position and then squad numbers? Kante4 (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
True, but Luxembourg (and other smaller countries) don't normally assign (or rather, announce) squad numbers in advance. So while I would agree that Squad Numbers should be used, in the cases where there aren't any the squad would then be ordered by name rather than number of caps, yes? Does four people count as enough of a consensus to revert these cap-sorting edits? --Philk84 Talk Contributions 19:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Yep, name when no numbers available. Kante4 (talk) 19:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Disagree. Position, caps, goals, then alphabetically. --BlameRuiner (talk) 11:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Why? – PeeJay 11:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Would like a reason aswell. Kante4 (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
I believe it gives more accurate representation of the team squad, that's all. The first letter of player's last name and the number that's changing every month just don't carry any valuable information, and even if you wan't to see it, it's just one click away because the table is sortable. --BlameRuiner (talk) 16:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
If the reader wants to sort by the number of caps, they can also do that by using the sortability function, but I think it's more useful to them to see the players in an alphabetical list. If they're looking to see if a specific player was selected (which is more likely than wanting to see who the most-capped player is), then alphabetical order is a more sensible default setting. – PeeJay 16:38, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, how do you sort players tied on caps? --SuperJew (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2018 ;(UTC)
I also think that someone looking through the squad for a player is more likely to search through it based on name rather than caps so that should be the default ordering. Spike 'em (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

English footballers abroad

Does anyone think an article based on the history of British and Irish players abroad would be notable subject to write about ? Dwanyewest (talk) 11:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure. Is there a list of Brazilian expat footballers, but deleted? List of Brazilian footballers in Serie A is survived only because it will be too long to include in List of foreign Serie A players. Matthew hk (talk) 11:28, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Dwayne is proposing "an article based on the history". I think that would have far more encyclopedic value than a laundry list of names of players...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
If editor can dig out secondary source that had in-depth coverage on the history, it certainly worth to do it and passing WP:GNG. But most often i read in the news was trivial coverage of listing name and concluded their career is not good abroad. Robbie Keane as i remember was one of the them in these news coverage, and may be Paul Ince as counter example in those news. (and may be David Beckham). However, since lack of a book sized material on this subject, it seem difficult to craft an article without listing matter by user decided criteria. Matthew hk (talk) 11:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
There are plenty of books on the subject, eg this one -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:57, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Then it is my fault on googling. Matthew hk (talk) 11:58, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think it'd be interesting - focus on notable aspects of it, eg the notorious reluctance of the Br players to learn languages, until Lineker broke that mould, or settle into the culture, see Luther Blissett for his comments on Rice Crispies. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Then we seem talking about two kind of content of the article. On one side, A.C. Milan, Genoa C.F.C. were linked to English expats and sailors who spread the sports to the world, which would supported by the book cited by ChrisTheDude. And on another side, was the history about the cultural adaption of the expat footballers and their success / failure. If some journalist made nail comment/summary on adapting culture / tactics as an expat footballers (such as Italy), when such content could also survived in wikipedia. But comment on culture difference by individual players may or may not support a statement regarding all expat had to face this challenge. Or Spanish footballer or any expat footballer would face such language and culture challenge. Matthew hk (talk) 12:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

England national playing style

I have tried bringing this subject up multiple times without any responses. I wish to know for the men's national football team should there be a subsection of the teams national playing style. I feel that is notable as there are many third person sources criticising as one the reasons for its lack of success. Dwanyewest (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

You could do, but beware of generalising too much across eras. The Venables and Hoddle sides played very differently than under McClaren. And even within managerial eras: famously, the change to the sweeper system that worked so well under Robson, adopted during a World Cup. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
WP:SODOIT comes in here. If you feel you could create a suitible subsection, do it. Make sure it's well sourced... Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

"Football manager" or "football coach"?

I've noticed that the new Celta de Vigo manager, Miguel Cardoso, has his article named as Miguel Cardoso (football coach), while Ricardo Rodríguez (a former Girona manager), has his article named as Ricardo Rodríguez (football manager). Both naming conventions are correct or should we move one of them? MYS77 13:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

It should be 'manager'. GiantSnowman 13:57, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Yup. Kante4 (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Manager is right. Out of interest, for countries where "coach" is the preferred word (Notably the US), do we refer to them as coaches in these articles, or keep it uniform? Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Could we not move him to Miguel Cardoso, and move Miguel Cardoso to Miguel Cardoso (disambiguation)? Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 14:52, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

RfD for various Hole / The hole titles

I have opened a discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 November 18#The hole (football) regarding five titles with Hole or The hole, redirecting to either Forward (association football) or Playmaker. Comments are welcomed from contributors to this WikiProject. Cnilep (talk) 03:01, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Lebanon national team infobox kits

Hi,

Can someone help me out on creating the proper kits for the infobox of the Lebanon national football team? I would have no problem in doing it myself but I have zero knowledge on how to create and upload the correct templates.

Home Away

Thanks for your help. Nehme1499 (talk) 11:36, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Notability of Future USL Teams

While doing NPP, I came across USL Chicago. This article had existed for a while but was then redirected. I did a quick archive search to see if this topic of future USL teams had been discussed before and didn't find a discussion. At what point would a new USL team be notable? Upon annoucement? Sometime closer to start of play? I don't know enough about the USL to have a good sense on this topic. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

There's actually a semi-related discussion to this currently taking place at Talk:Birmingham Legion FC, just as a general fyi. Jay eyem (talk) 22:07, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I am not surprised there are other discussions going on. I see SounderBruce (who I respect) weighing in there that they're notable - it was his work on the USL Chicago that stopped me short of taking the same route Walter Görlitz did and redirecting. Pinging Markdask as other participant. I would suggest some sort of RfC might be helpful for US soccer teams rather than the repeated trips to AfD which seems to yield conflicting results. But again USL as a league is quite outside my area of expertise and so that could be a horrible idea. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:17, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't suggest an RfC, unless it's on WP:GNG. That's clear. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
If they pass WP:GNG, they should be kept. Birmingham clearly does, I've put sources on the talk page. USL Chicago probably does as well though there's still a long ways to go with that one - I could see that going either way. But AfD is the proper place to have these discussions - seems as if there's a lot of random redirecting going on. SportingFlyer talk 00:14, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Terrell Miller

Terrell Miller did not play for Brentford, Northwood (loan) or Carshalton Athletic (loan). He has been confused with Tyrell Miller-Rodney, who played for Brentford's youth and development teams between 2011 and 2015.[1][2]. Refs for Miller Rodney's Northwood and Carshalton Athletic loans are here and here. For his joining and leaving Brentford, see here and here. I believe the cause is that [3] has been used as a source for Terrell Miller's career. Beatpoet (talk) 17:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.brentfordfc.com/news/2014/june/tyrell-miller-rodney-signs-new-development-squad-contract-/
  2. ^ https://www.brentfordfc.com/news/2015/april/three-young-players-offered-new-brentford-contracts/

Notability for Cup fixtures

There has been a discussion on this topic previously, but it doesn't appear that any consensus was reached. I think it would be useful for us to try to reach a consensus.

Currently, per the notability guidelines, a player is only notable if they play against another fully professional league side. This leads to the absurdity that if John Doe starts for Manchester United and scores a hat-trick against Wrexham (top of the 5th tier) in the FA Cup, he is not notable. However, if he comes off the bench in the 93rd minute against Macclesfield Town (bottom of the 4th tier), he is. Even within competitions this causes issues. Josh Key played an EFL Trophy fixture for a professional football league side (Exeter City), and thus meets notability criteria. Meanwhile, James Dodd played an EFL Trophy fixture for a professional football league side (Exeter City), but fails to meet notability criteria, as he played in a fixture against West Ham United Academy (who for the uninitiated compete alongside senior clubs in this competition). It is worth noting that the local paper list Dodd as having been 'handed his City debut' in this match - the opposition was not a concern. The same is true on the club website: "James made his first team debut for City as a second-half substitute in the club's 2-0 win over West Ham United under-21s in the 2018/19 Checkatrade.com Trophy."

It seems to me that this is an oversight in the notability criteria that ought to be corrected. A player is notable due to them making their professional debut for a professional side in a competitive fixture. The opposition in that fixture is a footnote, not the point from which notability stems. Domeditrix (talk) 16:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

The essence of WP:NFOOTBALL is that you must play a competitive game for a team from a fully-professional league against a team also from a fully-professional league. This is deliberate, and no 'oversight'. It's no different to a youth player for a Premier League team getting a run-out in the FA Cup against a non-league team. GiantSnowman 16:23, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
@Domeditrix: recent AFD consensus confirming that - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anthony Breslin and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Regan Upton.
It may seem a bit pedantic in this instance, but the SNG covers the entire world, not just a minor English competition. I assume James Dodd could be notable in the near future, so perhaps the article should be sent to draftspace instead. If he never plays in a game against two fully professional teams again, I wouldn't consider him notable for this appearance. Also if a footballer's only claim to notability is coming off the bench against Macclesfield Town for one minute, he may technically pass the SNG but nevertheless fail WP:GNG. SportingFlyer talk 09:34, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Jim Iley

This is more of a ping to editors who want to help out bringing the article up to a respectable standard. Govvy (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done GiantSnowman 09:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Is National Youth League (New Zealand) notable?

My feeling is it doesn't meet WP:FOOTYN as it's a youth league so not the highest league in the country (that being New Zealand Football Championship for men). I nominated it for deletion but Quazarrr who wrote the article removed it as it would be top league only it's top for youth. It doesn't meet WP:N either so feels like it should be deleted but I'm not clear on it so came here. NZFC(talk)(cont) 08:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Hey there, to be honest I'm not entirely sure either. But, seeing as multiple other youth leagues feature on Wikipedia, such as the neighbouring Y-League (even featuring individual seasons), I feel the article may stand a chance at remaining. Would love to hear the outcome! Quazarrr (talk) 08:40, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) :: The league can be included as an article if it meets general notability requirements. There are articles on youth leagues in English football, e.g. Professional Development League (more correctly leagues) and its predessor, the Premier Academy League. There are even a few season pages. I don't see why the New Zealand league shouldn't meet similar criteria if there are sufficient reliable sources.   Jts1882 | talk  08:45, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Now that I am thinking about it, I may be getting an article about the league (Where it could be notable) confused with season articles (where it probably isn't). NZFC(talk)(cont) 09:06, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
It's not one of the "generally notable" leagues, but WP:FOOTYN doesn't give an automatic notability presumption to any league - it's written more like a "common outcomes" section. Leagues need to pass WP:GNG (if not WP:NORG, but I haven't seen this requirement for leagues?) In any case if more coverage like this exists [4] I think the league is likely to be notable, because even if that's routine coverage, a lot of routine coverage will at least make it clear the league is consistently covered by local press. I don't know how many of the sources on the page count toward GNG though, but I'd at least have a dig around to see if other coverage exists. SportingFlyer talk 09:52, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Even if the league is notable, the individual seasons are likely not. GiantSnowman 09:56, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
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