Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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If interested, please share your opinion on the Rfc on Character Names in plot summaries. Jauerbackdude?/dude.

The Departed and The Last Samurai

Can a previously uninvolved editor take a look at the recent edit history of these two articles and intercede on the side of reason? I'm going to step back from editing these two articles for a few days, lest an edit war begin. Thanks. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 01:02, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The question is being begged. What is there to be resolved but to have others contribute to cinema articles without what appears to be universal unilateral revert of what is contributed and then in the end the changes are made at your behest? A review of the talk page will point this out. The whole point of editing is to bring about the star standard for every article. This is not going to be achieved without proper editing and content development of something such as the plot. A previously existing size advisory was posted on the plot. the plot, like many others was expressed in statements as they appeared in the film instead of general statements thus reducing the word count and making the article more concise. The plot continues to suffers from too much detail when it comes to the matter of its size. The proposed revisions were rejected on the basis that the matter had to be addressed in the talk page. The matter of a previous talk page incident was brought to fore to remind the contributor about actions from the past about thwarting talk page discussion by deleting the discussion. A review of archived teahouse content will show this happened 3 times. The contributor was advised against this action by others. Then when the plot size advisory was posted so that it appeared on the read screen of the article, unilateral piecemeal word reductions were made to reach the WP plot word count guideline. The contributor was reminded that the point of the WP plot size guidelines was not to reduce word count but create a concise plot. One change resulted in a grammatical error that has been corrected. When it was brought to the attention of the other contributor that the matter was under consensus discussion accusations of being an abusive contributor were made. I will not speculate as to why this was done but this same tactic has been used in the past with other contributor's edits. It is not a very cooperative means of encouraging cooperation in the community spirit especially when what is inflicted on others is what others wish to be followed in the process that has been established in WP to resolve article content--consensus. Yet it seems to be that this action of consensus is not applicable to some within the WP community. If there is WP content that shows that parts apply to some and parts do not apply to others then let the entire WP see this. TheoldJacobite is not a new contributor and should know better than to bully through the WP community. This is not a negative statement; it is a statement of fact. I can never change someone's attitude that if they see these actions as aggressive as it is shown that those who feel threatened react in ways that are not very cooperative as if personal territory is being usurped. I was unaware that WP was a personally owned organization. TheOldjacobite may not like what is going on; that is not the point of WP. And maybe TheOldJacobite may have a role in what he himself has described as his own "testiness" and what results. This is not a negative reaction on TheOldJacobit but a statement of fact. A review of ANIs and other boards will show that he has a tendency not to participate in questions being involved that are brought there. That contributor's talk page is restricted from non-registered users communicating. These are not actions that could be included as forms of aggression or being uncooperative within the WP community? WP is not set up to deal with bullies because it puts the bull's eye on you especially when someone has a following. You do not get promoted in WP if you make fellow administrators and higher echelon participants upset.2605:E000:1301:4462:904E:DC75:3814:4202 (talk) 06:04, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Some thoughts: TheOldJacobite reverted these changes to the plot summaries because they made them less clear. For example, in The Last Samurai, Honor has a role in Japanese history - that's background, not plot; Fired by the Winchester, ... - what's the Winchester?; The village is watching kabuki, Algren raises the alarm to the infiltrating ninga and he saves Katsumoto - what ninja? The original does not have those issues. Reverting and suggesting discussion is not aggression, bullying, or a sign that edits to make the summary more concise are unwelcome, it's just WP:BRD. No discussion was deleted from Talk:The Last Samurai, as you suggested, nor from Talk:The Departed. The guidelines suggest an upper limit of 700 words for film summaries. Before any editing took place, the summary was 718 words long: not a big problem, even if that were a hard limit. Perhaps you could try making more moderate changes to plot summaries and, if you're reverted, explain your intentions on the talk page before re-reverting. Starting that discussion with an accusation did not help to establish a consensus. Neither did reverting TheOldJacobite's less extensive copy-edit without then explaining why you thought it was a problem. It's great that you want to help improve plot summaries, but these particular changes have not yet helped. › Mortee talk 13:18, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the warnings on your talk page, that wouldn't be my own approach - at least if I was feeling calm - but from an outside perspective, reverting their copy edit on The Last Samurai and repeatedly inserting {{plot}} on The Departed does have a disruptive element to it. As the plot summary of The Departed was not beyond the word limit it would be better not to tag it, even if the language can be tightened. The visible warning is off-putting to readers and should be limited to cases that are bad enough that they need attention beyond starting a talk page conversation or making minor edits directly. As with The Last Samurai, I'd suggest trying to be a bit more patient, make changes, see if anyone objects, discuss them if so and, if not, carry on. We all want the same thing in the end, which is a crisp overview of each film's plot. It's entirely possible to work together to get there. › Mortee talk 13:31, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Seriously, why does anyone waste any time with plot summaries? They are forever getting rewritten. We should have a sandbox mentality about the summaries, in letting newer editors play around with it as long as the changes are not detrimental. Plus I'm sure there is a degree of laziness in a protective editor's wholesale reverting where they can't be bothered to review the differences and only do a partial revert of potentially problematic elements. Editors who tend to "protect" plot summaries should beware; see recent relevant ANI thread here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:36, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Not commenting on this current issue, but continuing on what Erik said, I've seen this "protection" attitude not only in the plot sections but in entire articles. There are some group of articles I know not to go near, as they are protected by the same person/group and content usually gets reverted in whole, good and "bad" together. --Gonnym (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Most edits that I see to film plots (where the plot is already at or below 700words) is to add details of a "favorite" or "important" scene, or otherwise expand well past 700 words. These aren't helpful, though I do try to consider if the addition is something that might be necessary to be kept (without engaging in OR).
But I am worried about the actions on the The Departed summary. The edit brought the word count down, and only simplified some of the phases to do that. Jacobite's reversions to that, calling it non-helpful, is a bit troubling. I know a first reaction to seeing a change to a long-established plot would be to ask if it is necessary but here its clearly cutting down text count. It's not a perfect reduction, but its definiately not one to fight over reversion. --Masem (t) 14:02, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Some rspoinses--

I think that OldJacobite can answer for himself otherwise what you say he did someone is mere speculation. He has not commented on any detail.

Has the film been seen? Did you listen to the narrator who also is portrayed as the interpretor? Honor is taken directly from his words from the very beginning of the film. That is niot background, that sets the tone for the entire film.

Winchester--The whole reason he needs a job is because the Winchestor Rifle company has fired him. Like anything entered into WP it is all up for development. No one can insert that. Film dialogue says that the company has fired him.>BR>

Ninja--I never contributed the term ninga to the plot. That was pre-existing. If that is what had been standing before then I was willing to accept. Oh, the ninga (it can be a singular or plural term) were the guys crawling over the roof.

Deleted talk page content. Did you look a little further up in another post that includes a link to where TDJ has deleted talk page content on 3 other articles. It is all in the teahouse archive that also includes he being rebuked.

A review of my edits concerning plots continually are reverted by TOJ sometimes with no edit summaries. In fact the first revert this time was not made with an edit summary. I purposely did not complete my edit of the plot intending to see just what would be the reaction of the editor in question because if he is going to continue to automatically revert then why bother getting the job done.

If this is a community and cooperative effort then why not ask questions on the talk page to come to a consensus. Instead there is only a revert and referral to the talk page. I find a question with his edits, ask him to explain the situation and am accused of being a combatent. TOJ changes are moderate? Or are you more willing to give the power of doubt because of senior standing in WP?

I do not bring this forth willy nilly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:e000:1301:4462:904e:dc75:3814:4202 (talkcontribs) 13:50, September 10, 2018 (UTC)

Certainly honour is a theme, this just belongs in a section about themes, not as the first sentence of the plot summary, which should cover the events of the film. The plot summary you wrote mentions "the Winchester" without saying what it is. Saying "raises the alarm to the infiltrating ninja" without first mentioning that a/some ninja has/have appeared is a bit incongruous. Your change is this. TOJ's is this. I don't think it's biased on my part to say that the latter is a comparatively moderate change, nor that discussing this on the talk pages, quite separate from any accusations, would be a helpful step. Erik and Gonnym, I don't edit in this area (I came here from the Teahouse) so I don't doubt you when you say that protectionism of summaries is an issue in general. Looking at the specific change to The Last Samurai, I don't think protectionism is the issue in this case. › Mortee talk 14:08, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
The narration is not part of the film's actions? I never said protectionism is the issue. Reverting witout regard to cointent and providing an apporoirpiate edit summary is and not believing that they are subject to consensus building on the talk page is.2605:E000:1301:4462:904E:DC75:3814:4202 (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
I guess I should have cautioned that I never indicated protectionism was the issue at had but certainly attempts at thwarting consensus building concerning plots when talk page discussion was deleted by TOJ. This was done to 3 separate WP film article talk pages. I did provide a reference to the first reference that I have found about that activity and it was never denied it having happened although they did say that they did not remember. I never knew that it was part of the WP experience to thwart consensus building by deleting discussions especially by someone that appears to have such regard in WP and I would think should know better especially as there was a reprimand in the tea house given at the time for such activity. At the time that this action was brought to the attention of TOJ I advised that i did not want to make an issue of it but then TOJ opened this discussion. I have been reviewing the histories to find the exact citations but there have with the articles involved been some deletions along the way.2605:E000:1301:4462:B816:3E82:AC1B:A488 (talk) 13:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Page creations by User:Verifications

Verifications has been blocked for WP:SOCK and WP:EVADE per User talk:GeneralizationsAreBad#Possible block evasion. Before being blocked, the account was used to create a number of articles/drafts related to Pakastani films/actors such as Licence (1976 film), Lalay Di Jan, Majhu, Gujjar Badshah, Draft:Naghma, Draft:License (1976 film), etc. These probably can be deleted per WP:G5 unless anyone thinks there's anything worth keeping and which might be further developed as an article. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:25, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Professional affiliations in infobox/lead

Hi all, please look at this version of the K. V. Anand article. Do you notice the "ISC" after his name in the lead and infobox, and "ISC" in the |title= parameter of the infobox? This stands for "Indian Society of Cinematographers". I've seen a flurry of these being added to articles over the last few months. I know that in film credits we'll often see these initials for casting people (C.S.A.) and directors occasionally (D.G.A.) and cinematographers (A.S.C.?), but how does the encyclopedia deal with these? Is there any established practice to add these affiliations to peoples' names? Will I find articles about American cinematographers that read "John Doe, A.S.C. is an American cinematographer."? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:33, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

You will, both Americans and Brits, in at least leads: Roger Deakins, Gilbert Taylor, Jeff Cronenweth, Gilbert Taylor (Aussie), Dan Mindel, Russell Carpenter, Charles Rosher, Karl Strauss, Conrad Hall (has it in "title" in infobox), John Toll (has it under "organization" in infobox), Lionel Lindon. From a quick jaunt down Academy Award for Best Cinematography, it seems very common to put it after their name in the lead. I don't really know what the established way to do it is, really, and I can't think of a quality article of a cinematographer to look at . I sort of assume that the letters are stuck there by editors independently of each other in the lead because they happen to appear like that after their name all the time rather than any sort of properly established practice. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:01, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
I appreciate the response, TenTonParasol. I'm racking my brain to figure out what, if any, content guideline would cover this. Lots of people are affiliated with one society or another, yet we don't actively indicate that this way. Union writers in the US are WGA, actors are typically SAG, but we rarely indicate these. It seems reasonable to indicate something like a cinematography association in |organization= maybe, but after names just looks like it's some weird post-graduate degree, or a royal order. In the case of Roger Deakins, the organizations are mashed right after his Commander of the Order of the British Empire. Are these of the same weight? Anybody else have any thoughts? Some of these were added in ancient times (2007, 2008, 2009[1][2][3][4]) so I'm not sure what principles were in place back then and what's been done away with over time. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:35, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this would fall under WP:POSTNOM. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:54, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Quoting what the relevent section at POSTNOM says: The lead sentence should be concise: Academic (including honorary) degrees and professional qualifications may be mentioned in the article, along with the above, but should be omitted from the lead, as should superseded honors (e.g. the lesser of two grades in an order), and those issued by other entities (e.g. sub-national organizations). So they shouldn't be mentioned in the lead, but no it's silent about the infobox. Regardless, when used, they should be done with Template:Post-nominals. --Gonnym (talk) 09:37, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Taxi Driver plot clarifications

If there are any forthcoming comments about the particulars made of the plot they would be appreciated as it seems to be a well attended article.2605:E000:1301:4462:122:4C87:1626:AD91 (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

Regarding Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, I've made an edit in regard to casting controversy details for which I could use additional feedback. See my comment here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 14:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

The Sleeper (Plot)

Could someone tell me in just what way is the abridgment of the plot at inadequate. A vert has again been made by TheOldJacobit on the basis that the word count was under the extreme 700 WP plot word advisory therefore there was no need to improve it. Thank you.2605:E000:1301:4462:8C64:A6E3:E51C:CFEC (talk) 15:03, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

He is right and you are wrong. The plot was 631 words, and it was suitable. Your version trimmed it down unnecessarily and included poor grammar. Binksternet (talk) 15:44, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

50% Rotten Tomatoes

Hi, do we bother summarizing a 50% RT rating? Since they have a pass-fail system, would we note that this film's response is generally poor, or would we attempt to infer meaning by describing the response as mixed? Seems like WP:OR-potential here if we start applying labels to certain percentages. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:20, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

As you noted, it's original research to interpret the percentage or any meaning not explicitly stated at RT. At least, that's my take on it. DonIago (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
RT only assesses reviews as positive or negative (with no in-between), so I would probably make that more clear in reporting its score. I would not extract any prose-based conclusion like "mixed" or "negative" based on the score alone. The critics consensus should be cited when available. I would look to secondary sources that draw a conclusion about the film's overall critical reception. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:51, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
50/50 is about as mixed as it can get on the face of it, but the RT summary clearly states it has not formulated a consensus as yet. This is because statistically speaking you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions about a film's reception based on just eight reviews, so we would be misrepresenting Rotten Tomatoes to present its findings as "mixed". Betty Logan (talk) 16:40, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
We've been down this path many times. RT doesn't distinguish between a poor review and a mixed review. The Tomatometer score, which only represents the percentage of positive reviews, isn't good enough on its own to represent a "mixed" or "poor" summary statement in most situations, IMO. Only when there is a low Metacritic score to complement it, should a summary statement be considered. If it proves to be contentious within a given article, it's best to avoid one altogether or rely on other secondary sources as Erik mentioned. --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:22, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
"Mixed" isn't a good term full stop. It can indicate a significant number of good and poor reviews (i.e. split opinion), or it can indicate a lukewarm reception where the bulk of reviews are clustered around average ratings. The term itself doesn't really indicate the spread of critical opinion. Betty Logan (talk) 12:12, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
I agree that "mixed" is a broad term, but it is one that sources use quite often. I don't think we'd have any luck with the suggestion it shouldn't be used. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:46, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Any Italian film fans? I've given The Stolen Children an overhaul

It's a very affecting and important early 90s Italian movie which I thought deserved a good write-up, but I may have put a bit too much detail into the plot. Films isn't my regular editing area so if any regulars who know this movie want to go over the article, maybe help bring it up to GA status, I'd appreciate it. MaxBrowne2 (talk) 07:30, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Pokémon film companies

There is a discussion regarding how we should list the Pokémon film companies in the infobox. It can be found at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#Pokémon film companies. Input from project members would be appreciated. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:56, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

RfC on anime film articles

If anyone is interested, there is an RfC on whether to list only the main production companies or animation studios in the infobox of anime film articles. Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#Request for Comment: Is it relevant to list all production companies or just main animation studios in the infobox of film articles?. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:40, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Star Wars split discussion

There is a discussion at Talk:Star Wars#Splitting to Star Wars (film series) about splitting coverage of the film series at Star Wars to a different article. The discussion is also generally covering how best to perform cleanup at the article, including how to handle tables and the length of the page. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:57, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Godzilla: King of the Monsters article naming

I have a pinch of confusion in regards to these three film's naming. I believe the "Godzilla: King of the Monsters in 3D" version is perfect as is, but I find it bizarre that a comma and an exclamation mark is enough to distinguish the 1956 film without any need for a title disambiguation. However, the differing punctuation with just a colon for the 2019 film does not earn the same separation. To me, this punctuation difference with the presence of hatnotes should be sufficient, but if not, both films should be disambiguated by year. Thoughts everyone? Sock (tock talk) 02:07, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

If the punctuation difference is enough disambiguation for one then it should be enough for both as well. If that plus hatnotes is not enough for some people and we are going to use the years to disambiguate, we should be consistent and give years to both. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:26, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
I didn't even notice the comma the first 3 times I searched for it. I've never found the small distinction a suitable guideline to follow. Yes, they are different titles which allow the Wikipedia title system to work, but for almost all readers there is no difference. I also don't believe that an average reader knows the correct punctuation of a title to be able to differentiate between the two. --Gonnym (talk) 05:45, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Roman Spinner

Roman Spinner has doing some lazy experiments on the cast section in film article again. This time, in Home Alone as seen with this diff. I cleaned up again as usual. He's been doing some unnecessary experiments on cast sections like he did with the In the Heat of the Night and is clearly not getting it. To tell you the truth, I'm really getting sick and tired of cleaning us this user's messes on the cast sections in film articles. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:33, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Since BattleshipMan also posted a similar complaint on my talk page, I replied there.    Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 05:43, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
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