Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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Situation with Armageddon

There's a edit warring/dispute situation in Armageddon. Those involved besides me include Gareth Griffith-Jones, TheOldJacobite, Beyond My Ken, GreenMeansGo and Aledownload. There a serious clash of style and issues with the article's infobox on the cast table of it and the cast section of that movie. TheOldJacobite has been shrinking the cast section down to unnecessarily low levels, which that movie has a lot of notable actors on it and Gareth Griffith-Jones has removed most of the cast in the infoboxes which the names he removed are on the bulletin board of the theatrical poster. They haven't stopped doing that and the article is under full protection for a week as a result of this dispute. We need all the help we can get to solve this situation. BattleshipMan (talk) 18:28, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Link to discussion: Talk:Armageddon (1998 film)#Welcome to the talk page. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:31, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
As a note, I was the one who requested protection and started the talk page discussion, but I have no editorial opinion either way as to which content should be included in the article. GMGtalk 18:33, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
C'mon, it's not the end of the world... Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
The situation with Armageddon isn't resolving very well. TheOldJacobite and Gareth Griffith-Jones are acting like they are making things better with Armageddon which they are not and they refuse to listen to reason. They want to remove most of the names in the infobox, since the bulletin box has eight actor names on it, including Willis and they want to leave only Willis's name on it, based on Beyond My Ken's ideas. That's not a good sign. The situation requires a lot of help than we realize. BattleshipMan (talk) 05:36, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
We need to keep an eye on Armageddon in case we can have another edit war over the issues with the infobox, cast section and such. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:30, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Mentioning post-credits scenes in plot summaries

This isn't the first time I've brought this up. But I still think we're doing this wrong - and I feel better at least, if I can get it off my chest, even if I convince no one....

It seems to be standard in plot summaries for superhero films to mention when scenes are "post-credits scenes" or "mid-credits scenes". I don't think we should do this.

  • This describes editing, not plot. Whether a scene takes place before, during, or after the credits is irrelevant to the plot.
  • There's nothing obviously notable, from an encyclopaedic perspective, about whether a particular scene in a particular movie takes place during or after the credits. Yes, the post-credits scene is a genre staple at this point, but plot summaries aren't the place to describe genre conventions. Instead they should be covered in the article about the superhero film genre, or the Marvel Cinematic Universe, etc.
  • Some people are interested in knowing what the post-credits scene is in the latest superhero movie. But people - particularly fans of entertainment franchises - are interested in all kinds of things we have guidelines against including, such as easter eggs, trivia, memorable quotes, and other fancruft. Just because there's demand there doesn't mean it's a good thing to include.

Those are my two cents. Happy for consensus to flatten me. Just wouldn't want to let a dogma go unchallenged. Popcornduff (talk) 07:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

If the scene is not relevant to the overall story arc—which it usually isn't in Marvel films—then it should be omitted IMO. Betty Logan (talk) 07:47, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. Popcornduff (talk) 07:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
same. If you can understand the plot without a scene (and these marvel endings. Do not usually make any sense to me!) then they are not needed. Andrzejbanas (talk) 09:05, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree that if it isn't relevant than it should go. The perfect example of this is Justice League right now. There are two scenes. If you haven't seen the movie, I apologize, but the mid-credit scene is a race between Superman and the Flash, and the end credit scene is Luthor propositioning Deathstroke to start their own league. The race is by far not relevant in the scheme of the film. There are a couple of quick jokes about their speeds, but that's it and it doesn't enhance or answer some question directly related to the rest of the film. The end credit, although not directly important, at least has enhancement value for identifying that they are planting the seeds for the expansion of their universe (whether it happens or not is irrelevant). Yet, people constantly want to add the race into the summary because it's important in the COMICS. I feel like our guide on plot summaries probably needs to be talk about after film scenes to some aspect.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 19:02, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree with the general sentiment that most post-credits scenes are not relevant to the plot summary, but such scenes are rather well-covered by secondary sources. I'm not sure where else would be a good place to put them. Maybe have a note at the end of a plot summary that links to a "Notes" section that summarizes the post-credits scene and provides any real-world context? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Similar example with Spider-Man: Homecoming. The first, mid-credits scene is relevant to the plot, furthering the story of Adrian Toomes. The very last post-credit scene is a joke scene with Captain America talking about the virtues of patience (ie why you as an audience stayed for this scenes). Users have consistently tried to add it, but like with Bignole's example, it has no bearing on the overall plot. It is, however, covered in the production part of the article, so it isn't like we are completely ignoring it. It just isn't put in the plot section. As to the point of not stating "mid-credits" or "post-credits", I think there is merit to having those labels, especially when the scene featured isn't a direct relation to the proceeding plot (ie the second Justice League tease). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with using these labels where applicable. For some films, it's not possible to convey "just" the story. Sometimes some wording needs to be spent on defining the structure. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
If the end-credits scene is discussed by secondary sources and we use that sourced commentary elsewhere in the article then I think it is reasonable to summarise the scene in the plot summary (after all, the main purpose of the synopsis is to support the rest of the article). However, lots of trivia is covered by secondary sources and we leave it out if it is not directly relevant to discussing the film's production and reception. If we are just mentioning the scene for the sake of mentioning it then ideally it is better to drop it from the summary. Betty Logan (talk) 19:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
As I mentioned in that discussion, anything that happens during and after credits counts towards the actual film as it is counted towards the film's runtime. If it can be integrated into the plot without having to say "mid-credits" or "post-credits" then do so, as with Scrooged and The Babysitter (2017 film). AngusWOOF (barksniff) 19:40, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
@Betty Logan, I think if reliable sources are covering the non-relevant scene enough that we discuss the real world context of it elsewhere, then I don't see why the summary of said scene wouldn't just happen in that section. We have plot related details in other sections, especially when they are specific points that are too detailed to be relayed in the actual plot summary section. Since most of these scenes take up about a sentence, I can't see why, if say you're discussing in the production section the filming of a certain scene, that explaining the scene wouldn't hold more value there than in the plot section.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
  • General comment: just because something is covered in secondary sources does not mean it must be included in a Wikipedia article on the topic. I think that applies doubly to something like this, where the secondary sources are often written for a fan audience while Wikipedia is not (or at least should not be). —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:25, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
    While true in general, I would argue that Wikipedia articles for films that have fan bases (namely comic book films) get more coverage from secondary sources than most other kinds of films. We would not necessarily hold back coverage as a result. It may be better to compare post-credits scenes with roughly similar kinds of "standout" elements, like celebrity cameos. Actually, I just had an outside-the-box idea. Why not a List of Marvel Cinematic Universe post-credits scenes that could be linked to, especially the more banal scenes like the one with Howard the Duck? And for the relevant ones, greater context could be provided in a way that does not stick out like a sore thumb in the film's own article. There could be some high-level commentary about Marvel's influence on this trend. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:11, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
  • I brought up this issue a few years ago in relation to the Guardians of the Galaxy post-credits scene here. I absolutely think some of them are relevant to the plot, but the scene for the first Guardians film just shows that Tivan didn't die (which is never said to have happened) and that he remained in his collection for awhile after it exploded. Cosmo and Howard's inclusions do absolutely nothing for the plot, and it's trivia at best. I think it needs to be on a case-by-case basis, but while they are part of the film, they need to be treated like any other scene in a film would be treated, and excluded if they aren't notable to the plot (like the Captain America one in Spider-Man). TL;DR: I agree with Betty. Sock (tock talk) 16:12, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
  • To clarify, I think it goes without saying that if a scene isn't relevant to the plot it shouldn't be mentioned at all. But when it is relevant, I don't think we need to also say if it comes before, during, or after the credits - that's irrelevant to a plot summary. Popcornduff (talk) 16:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree that post-credits that are not extending the current movie's plot should be omitted, unless for some reason they are the subject of intense discussion in sources. At least for the MCU films, many of the post-credits scenes involve characters that can be described as cameo roles in a cast list (eg "Chris Hemsworth has a cameo as Thor in a post-credits scene." for Doctor Strange). --Masem (t) 17:38, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

A lot of this discussion appears to have gone off-topic. There isn't really a need to discuss the general merit of post-credit scenes being mentioned in plot summaries, as they are not actually special. As for as we should be concerned when writing a plot summary, they are just other scenes and should be included or not based on the usual criteria. But then, going back to what this discussion is supposed to be about, there is a common practice to label the post-credit scenes that have been included as such. I go either way on these. Sometimes, I don't think it is necessary because, as I have already said, they are just other scenes. But I do think there are instances where it makes sense to label the post-credit scenes in the plot, such as when it has nothing to do with the rest of the plot and wouldn't make sense being lumped in with the rest. To pick a recent example, I think you could easily write the plot summary for Black Panther (film) to not point out the mid-credits scene since it is just a natural continuation of the movie and can be mentioned like any other scene, but the post-credits scene doesn't relate to the rest of the plot and wouldn't make sense if it was in the middle of the movie, so explaining that it came after the credits (which people know means it was likely connected to a different film) makes sense there. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:25, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Request for comment on splitting film, director and actor award articles by decades

Since last year, User:‎Michael 182, also as User:TwentySteps (blocked) and via various IP edits (some blocked for socking), has been splitting several film award articles that were previously arranged in one whole table, most of them sortable, into tables by decades. Venice Festival awards: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Berlin Festival awards: [5], [6], [7], [8]. He has also done various changes in Academy Awards and Primetime Emmy Awards which are outside of my scope of interest in films. Note also that I have not opposed the division by decades in director and actor awards as this is also outside my focus of interest, plus I find no meaningful sortability damaged in so splitting them.

From several discussions I have participated or just followed in WP:Film, I am aware that by longstanding consensus the preferred format for presenting film award lists, is by using one stortable table. Splitting such a table to smaller tables by decades (sortable or not) disables any meaningful sortability throughout the whole list. If split by decades, one cannot get either a full alphabetical list of Directors or of Films that won a certain award any longer. Since the user claims that there is not sufficient evidence that such consensus exists, I am doing here a formal RfC to have some consensus on this issue clearly found in one place, also for future reference. 1. Should the film award articles be kept in one sortable table or split in decades? 2. Should director and actress/actor awards be kept in one sortable table or split in decades? Hoverfish Talk 14:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


  • Support one sortable table. Reviewing the diffs, I was honestly expecting a much longer list of films. But considering the relatively small size of these lists of films, I see no compelling reason to split by decade. These lists would need to be much longer to warrant any splitting. WP:SIZERULE has some application here, indicating that list articles could be much longer than the readable prose size especially to preserve a sortable table. That to me says that sortable tables are permitted to be concentrated and quite large. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one sortable table. If there are only 1-2 entries per year, there's no reason to split that by decade. And these are for annual awards, it is not a big deal. On the flip side if it were tens or hundreds of media per year then that would warrant it. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 18:22, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support a single sortable table. By splitting each decade into a separate table you are losing the sorting functionality and gaining absolutely nothing in terms of organization and structure. Betty Logan (talk) 00:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Support a single sortable table. To add a specific item to Betty Logan's point you lose the functionality of alphabetic sorting. MarnetteD|Talk 04:35, 14 March 2018 (UTC)


It is true that there is no need to divide the table by deacdes based on the size of the article now. But, over time, the bytes will increase and, as the text accumulates in one single table, it will make it more difficult to look through the text. It will also make it similar to the format of the other Venice Film Festival awards. Despite the fact that they handle different kinds of awards, that doesn't mean that they can't have similar formats. Michael 182 (talk) 19:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it is an exaggeration to worry about list growth "over time". Looking at Golden Lion as an example, adding a new film to both distinct lists is an increase of 217 bytes. The current article size is 17,578 bytes. WP:SIZERULE indicates that the rules of thumb apply less strictly to list articles than they do with prose articles, but let's go with 60 kB as the cutoff anyway. The difference between now and then is 42,422 bytes. If we simply added two films every year, it would take over 195 years for it to reach 60 kB in size. Of course, perhaps there will be more prose in that article, but it is still very slow growth overall. Essentially, list size is not an issue now and won't be for these articles for a long time. (Not to mention that there will likely be advances in Wikipedia, e.g., more powerful filtering options even for the biggest sortable tables.) If you want to talk about much broader scopes and how to sort films under these, that makes sense, but these aren't the lists to be rearranging. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:21, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to point that you still can get a list of Directors and Films that won the award even with the sortable table divided by decades. Just because they are not on the same page, that doesn't mean that it is not possible to do that. Also, by dividing the table, the text is actually organised in a better way as it makes it easier to focus on reading only specific parts of the table that you want to read. As I've commented, despite the fact that there are different Venice Film Festival awards and they have different information to sort, that doesn't mean that they can't have similar formats. Michael 182 (talk) 02:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

WP:FILMPOSTER and foreign film posters?

Is there a consensus for posters on non-American films? Would we use the British or American poster for a film made in South Korea, for example, or would we use the Korean poster? Just checking as WP:FILMPOSTER says to use the "original theatrical" poster.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I've always assumed that it would be the poster from the film's country. (If there is more than one country, then perhaps from the film's main language?) It seems to simplify choice where there would be additional options among the English-language territories with no good way to decide which to use. Of course, one could make the argument that if we are writing the English-language title for a foreign-language film, the poster should be in the English language too. Assuming the image is non-free, we use such "cover art" for "visual identification". I don't think the image's text matters that much because we already convey it very well in the actual text itself. So for the sake of simplicity as well as direct representation, the poster from the film's country (or main language) seems appropriate to use. I'm open to others' perspectives, though. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:49, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
We don't have a poster in the infobox just for the sake of showing the poster, it is in there as the primary means of visual identification, and in the case of non-free posters the fair use rationale is built around that concept. On the basis of that I would be inclined to use the poster that is most prevalent in the English-speaking world. It seems a bit counter-intuitive to me to use artwork that does not the bear the same title that we have the article under and imagery that is unfamiliar in the English-speaking world. That said, the prevailing view from what I can gather is to use the "native" poster, so I think that is the de facto consensus as things currently stand. Betty Logan (talk) 21:53, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Can "unfamiliar" really be an argument, though? We stick with film posters even though DVD and Blu-ray covers and streaming-media images are more familiar with more readers, especially in the long run. I guess it depends on what we want "visual identification" to mean in the context of films, and I think we need to pursue as simple of a solution as possible. Otherwise, one could argue to use a DVD cover over the poster if the film did better in disc sales at the box office, one could argue to use a US film poster for a UK film because it made more money (meaning more people saw it), or one could argue to use more conventional "imagery" than the original poster (if for whatever reason it was especially "weird"). I'm not sure if it is more important to show the English-language poster than the film-country/language poster when posters in the long run may not be the same as how a reader may have seen the film represented in other media. To use an example, I don't see a problem with Seven Samurai using the original poster. We insert posters as a product of their time (especially since we as a community do not endorse constantly updating poster images to have a newer look). So why not insert them as a product of their location as well as their time? Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 22:52, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I would have absolutely no problem with using the iconic 1967 poster at Gone with the Wind (film) over the one that is used. In the last couple of weeks there have been two recent poster changes at The Birth of a Nation (from this to this) and at 2001: A Space Odyssey (film) (from this to this). I don't have a clue which is the original or why they were altered but all four posters seem serviceable to me. The point I was making though is that our use of non-free posters is qualified under very specific criteria i.e. we use the image in the infobox to identify the subject of the article, so it just seems logical to me to use cover art—whether that is a poster or DVD cover—that best fulfils that purpose. Betty Logan (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
100% agree with Betty. The infobox image is for visual identification, so why not use a poster from the English-speaking world? — Film Fan 11:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
I outlined quite a bit above and suggest reading it. Posters are not even the most popular means of visual identification in the long run. You may as well argue why not use a DVD cover? There are many possible cover art images with many possible valid reasons for using them. Seven Samurai itself has so many English-language possibilities; what is the appropriate criteria to choose beyond our own aesthetic opinions? We use the "original theatrical release poster" for English-language films because it helps simplify choosing among many options. The same logic should extend to foreign-language films. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 12:43, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
I did read it. "original theatrical release poster (from the English-speaking world, where possible)" would be a very clear and simple update. Use the poster from whatever country (US, UK, Oz, Canada) releases the film first. — Film Fan 13:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Film ratings

Since when did we start reporting about these in articles? In the Red Sparrow article, I was reverted for ditching the film ratings report because not only do I find it indiscriminate, but also not terribly important to include. I believe IMDb should be the proper venue for these, not WP. Slightlymad 03:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

We don't, typically. THe only time we would discuss ratings would be when secondary sources are discussing the impact of the rating, not simply listing the rating itself. See WP:FILMRATINGS.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 03:52, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Well that's not really the case with Red Sparrow. Will someone convince Callmemirela in the Talk:Red Sparrow#Film Ratings... not to add these anymore. She thinks their inclusion is the status quo. Slightlymad 04:07, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Draft:How Do You Live?

The film is currently in production. Is this notable enough for publication? Artix Kreiger (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes. — Film Fan 20:27, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

We lack an article for Nigeria's first film: Palaver (1926 film)

I was reading up on Nigerian film history, and apparently 1926's Palaver is recognized as the first film made in Nigeria, and we have no article for this seminal work.

While I'm aware that Palaver is problematic on a number of levels, being steeped in colonial racism, etc. it is still quite significant as the first Nigerian film. Would someone here enjoy creating an article for this topic? MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

@MatthewVanitas: Count me in. Sock (tock talk) 18:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
@Sock:, excellent, looking forward to seeing it! Do you think it's out of copyright by Nigerian law, maybe we can get one of the tech-savvy folks here to get a short video-clip to add to the article? Does the director count as the "author" of the work and we have to wait for 70 years after his death (Nigeria and UK both have that rule, not sure which one has precedence for Colonial Nigeria)? Or is a film a "corporate copyright" held by the film studio, and ends at a different time?
Dang, talking about this film has made me hungry for palaver sauce...
MatthewVanitas (talk) 18:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Definite oversight. Couple of potentially useful links: BFI and Colonial Film. yorkshiresky (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Answered my own question: UK film copyright ends 70 years after the death of the last director or writer, and Palaver's director Geoffrey Barkas died in 1979, so no dice. I'm not finding a poster online to use as Fair Use, but we can still use one single screenshot under Fair Use, right? MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, a screenshot would be fair use and I suspect a short extract from the film, but unsure of guidelines regarding length. Audio is less than 30 seconds. yorkshiresky (talk) 20:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
For Fair Use, don't we have to be either/or on a screenshot and a video clip? It has to serve as the "primary means" of identification, so my understanding is it has to be one or the other.
Also, inspired by this issue I went to a West African restaurant in a nearby big city, got some palava sauce for lunch, and it was delicious and I'd recommend it to others. MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Time Bandits infobox cast list

I've started a discussion here on a recent disagreement about which cast members should be listed in the Time Bandits infobox. The longstanding de facto consensus was to list only those actors whose pictures appear on the poster, which an anonymous editor objects to. At any rate, I'd like other editors to weigh in, please. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 14:48, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

How to format "Deadline Hollywood" in articles

Hi all. This is somewhat relevant to our project since many of our articles cite Deadline Hollywood. There is currently a discussion regarding how the website should be formatted in articles, as well as in citation templates, namely if it should be italicized or not. If you would like to join in, the discussion can be found at Talk:Deadline Hollywood#Title style. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Websites that take on the form of an online magazine should be italicised, as we do with hardcopy magazines per MOS:ITALICTITLE which states "Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content should generally be italicized (Salon or HuffPost)." Betty Logan (talk) 18:33, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

RT score in older films

I know this has been discussed before – a search of the archives didn't turn up the old discussion – but I am bringing it up again. I feel that Rotten Tomatoes should not be used in the critical reception section of articles about films that pre-date the site. RT gives a good snapshot of the critical consensus of current films, but the score for, say, Gone with the Wind is going to be skewed. For older films, a cross-section of critical views, in prose, is much more illuminating. What percentage of the RT score for an older film is based on reviews from critics who post-date the film by decades? And, given the fact that RT includes reviews from critics of lesser notability makes their reviews all the more suspect. Plenty of older films have been critically reappraised in the decades that followed their original release, but even that reappraisal is best handled in prose, not in an RT score whose value is questionable, to say the least. I think we lose nothing of value by leaving it out. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 00:38, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Here is a link to one of the discussions Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film/Archive 15#RT for older films. There might have been others but this is the one I remember. MarnetteD|Talk 00:46, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, MarnetteD. I'm sorry I missed that previous discussion. My opinion, though, on this subject has only developed recently as I've seen the RT score added or expanded in the articles for older films. It's an eyesore. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 13:14, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
If it's done right, it doesn't bother me. Rotten Tomatoes has been around for so long now that its oldest reviews are almost 20 years old, anyway. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:20, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
The essay Wikipedia:Review aggregators explains this in detail. Slightlymad 10:36, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
NinjaRobotPirate, in my experience, it's rarely done right. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 13:12, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I think that essay is wrong about several issues. Aggregator scores are always accurate for the data they sampled. We can't control what data Rotten Tomatoes samples, and it's not our job to second-guess whether they came to the "correct" conclusion. If Rotten Tomatoes says that Blade Runner has a 90% approval rating (or whatever, I have no clue), so be it – I think we should report that. Rotten Tomatoes does not measure a film's reception on release, and this is irrelevant to the Tomatometer score. The Tomatometer score is a snapshot of what the sampled critics thought at the moment the sample was analyzed – and nothing else. Rotten Tomatoes has nothing to say about a film's reception on release, regardless of release date. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
We don't include Rotten Tomatoes scores for the sake of including Rotten Tomatoes scores though; we mostly use it as a barometer for the reception. A film's reputation can change over time to the extent that the Tomateter score is no longer indicative of the reception, so to present it as such in those cases would be misusing the data. For example, Vertigo currently holds a 95% score but yet it had its fair share of naysayers upon release. Vertigo (film)#Reception does a really good job of explaining the film's critical trajectory and I honestly don't see how the Tomatometer score would be helpful in furthering our understanding. The tomatometer score is listed at Citizen Kane#Re-evaluation where at least it isn't misrepresented, but it does seem a tad superfluous compared to the in-depth commentary preceding it. Betty Logan (talk) 18:33, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Vertigo's 95% Tomatometer score insinuates nothing about what the initial reception was. If people say stuff like, "It received critical acclaim on release", and they cite Rotten Tomatoes, I revert them regardless of the film's release date. Rotten Tomatoes doesn't measure this. Anyway, if the Tomatometer doesn't add anything useful, we can omit it. Hitchcock films would be an example of that. But what about old exploitation films like Basket Case and Maniac Cop? Or obscure Troma stuff, like Combat Shock? It's not like we're drowning in high quality sources. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

12 Monkeys (again)

There is currently a discussion (debate might be a more appropriate word) on the 12 Monkeys talk page as to whether 3 quotes from the film, formatted as references, are necessary for the plot section. This matter was discussed last August, with the clear consensus being against including them. The discussion erupted again recently after I removed the quotes. BrightR is alone in wanting to maintain the quotes, and selectively cites policies and guidelines to support them. I argued that the quotes are not illuminating, and that if they are truly necessary, they should simply be quoted in the plot. Formatting them as references makes no sense to me. Three other editors, including Doniago, have reverted and posted to the talk page, but the debate rages on. Can some other experienced FilmProject editors comment over there? At some point, this has to be put to rest. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 13:57, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that this WP:LOCALCONSENSUS is consensus-by-mob which goes against a specific guideline that recommends using references in plot sections, and the reason for removing these references is "not needed", which is against policy. Bright☀ 18:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
No, the problem is these bad-faith accusations of multiple editors who oppose these primary-source inline citations for that article, claiming that they are violating Wikipedia's policies and guidelines in not supporting that unconventional approach. Per WP:FILMPLOT, "Complicated plots may occasionally require clarifications from secondary sources, so cite these sources in the section." I suggest making the case for using secondary sources, rather than using the primary source itself to attempt to clarify complicated aspects of the primary source. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:12, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Excuse me, can you clarify what these "bad-faith accusations" are, please? ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 14:31, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm referring to last year's discussion with multiple editors opposing BrightR in using primary-source inline citations. It is bad faith for them to assume that such editors are in utter violation of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. While I get the sentiment of referencing quotes to address a "complex plot point", it crosses the threshold from being able to provide a "straightforward" description of the plot to going beyond that. The talk page involved bringing up secondary sources, which is fine, but why not use these in the first place? If a plot point is contentious among editors, then either write the summary on a higher level until all is in agreement, or use a secondary source to tackle the matter directly. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I see your point. Thanks for the clarification. I don't think there was any contention between editors regarding the plot, only about the use of these quotes as references. And this is still the point of contention, as you know. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 13:15, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

User talk namespace template message for updating accessdate

It's a common thing, I've noticed, for an editor to update the statistics for websites like Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic, especially for films and television series, and not update the access-date parameter when they do so. For editors that do not do this, a user talk namespace template message would be handy, so I've made {{uw-accessdate1}} and {{uw-accessdate2}} for this sort of situation. Enjoy. -- AlexTW 00:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

@AlexTheWhovian: This could be quite handy... thanks! Also, thanks for using the actual parameter name, |access-date=, and not the |accessdate= alias. (one of my pet peeves 😃) —Joeyconnick (talk) 02:19, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
@Joeyconnick: No problems! I personally use |accessdate=, but I'm aware of the larger number of people that use the actual parameter over its alias. (And yeah, I'm not following this page, so cheers for the ping!) -- AlexTW 09:11, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

RfC: References for key or complex plot points in plot sections

Opinions are needed on the following: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction#RfC: Is it encouraged to have references for key or complex plot points in plot sections?. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

DC Extended Universe split discussion

I just wanted to notify the project of a discussion about a potential split of the DC Extended Universe page. JOEBRO64 17:13, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Neutral notice

A move request regarding / Deadline Hollywood, a website often cited by this Project, is taking place at Talk:Deadline Hollywood#Requested move 11 March 2018. It is scheduled to end in seven days.--Tenebrae (talk) 19:28, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Linking directly to IMDb title or name from within lists

I've asked before, and the answer was plainly "no". Even Template:IMDb name states that "it should only be used in the "external links" section of an article". And yet there seems to be a way of wikilinking directly to IMDb, not sure how this works but [[imdbname:0698757|Svetlana Proskurina]] produces: Svetlana Proskurina (try it), and I find it lately in plenty of filmographies and award lists. I think that this practice should not spread. Could this be a bug in the software, or could it be reported as such? Or how else could we stop it? Hoverfish Talk 19:40, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

The issue was raised at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_140#IMDB_hack a couple of years ago. I think it is wrong to treat IMDB as an "inter-wki" rather than an external link. We could add something to MOS:FILM if we are in agreement that IMDB should follow the guidelines outlined at WP:EL. It will be difficult to enforce at a technical level because to my knowledge there is no way of trackings its usage, unlike a template. Betty Logan (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Special:Search finds about 700 pages. --Izno (talk) 23:22, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
A-ha! If we can track the usage then it does make it worth doing something to tackle it, that is if we all agree that this is indeed a problem. Betty Logan (talk) 23:41, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
In terms of agreement, here is what I got from @Erik: and @Lugnuts: when I asked: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_65#External_links_in_filmographies Hoverfish Talk 00:52, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

How scared of snakes is Indiana Jones

Dispute at Talk:Ophidiophobia#Indiana_Jones_BRRD,_if_anyone_is_interested if the sources used are reliable in context. More views welcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Cyphoidbomb needs refresher: Summary of criticism/praise toward an actor

Hi all, there's a discussion brewing at Talk:Bajirao Mastani that's centered on whether or not an actress received general praise or general criticism over her role. One participant has tried to find as many positive reviews as he can, and the other participant has tried to find all the negative reviews he can, and it's become an interesting experiment in cherrypicking, as well as Wikipedia acting as a critical response aggregator. When we're talking about a film's critical response, it's usually easy--we just quote the aggregator, but what is the community's general practice for summarizing critical response aimed at an individual? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't know why would we need to aggregate a particular actor's critiquing on a film's page. Would it not be simpler to just, when using a reviewer's comments on the film just indicate their particular assessment of an actor there? If a reader wants to know if more people like or hated the actor, they can go read ALL the reviews at Rotten Tomatoes. We don't need to take a stance, and if it was particularly contentious (split down the middle and worth noting) then likely some third party is going to comment on how split people were over that actor's performance.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
My strong preference is to NOT generalize from specific reviews, but only generalize if there are good solid sources that specifically state a view. So not a tabloid, puff piece or clickbait source, but a well-known prefessional film critic that does a retrospective on a particular film. Trying to generalize from specific reviews really touches into WP:SYNTH territory. Ravensfire (talk) 16:39, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
THat's what I'm saying. If you don't have another source identifying the overall opinion of an actor in the film, then really just identify the facts. Critic X thought this about the film, and this about a performance, while Critic Y thought this. Remember, reviews are not supposed to be quotes but paraphrases of their overall assessment of the film. So, you may find someone slightly mentions an actor's performance but it isn't really a focal point. As such, you likely wouldn't cover it in your summary of the review for that section. Not every actor needs to be commented on, nor does every review need to comment on every aspect of a film. Unless there is an agenda for this specific actor (which is a different problem for editors), then you may only have a couple of opinions in the article itself about said performance.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 16:44, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Bignole and Ravensfire. I would love some input from others, if possible. The world of Indian film article editing is very insular and sometimes these discussions lack perspective that a wider forum like this can provide. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:08, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with just explaining specific sources (Critic X, Critic Y) instead of more sweeping generalities of actor's performances. If there's a particular aspect of the performance that should be of interest, like Emma Watson's singing in Beauty and the Beast (2017 film), then that can be highlighted. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 19:06, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Are films that fail to even breakeven at the box office considered notable enough to let the director pass WP:DIRECTOR?

At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fu'ad Aït Aattou some are arguing the director is notable because of his films, but none of those films even broke even at the box office. Dream Focus 15:51, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Also WP:NACTOR number 1 says Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions. Are the films notable just because they have a Wikipedia page, even if they failed miserable at the box office? Dream Focus 15:55, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Box office aren't the be-all, end-all of not ability for films. Ishtar (film) is the most infamous example if this. Did not get even close to breaking even, but is notable despite (actually, because of) that. Films can be notable outside of breaking even, and if a director manages to make enough notable box office failures, then they're notable. Notability is not a measure of success, nor is it contingent on success. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Ding! You are correct sir! oknazevad (talk) 17:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Who wants to send Orson Welles to AfD? Betty Logan (talk) 17:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Creed II

Creed II has apparently started filming, would it be ok to make an article by now?★Trekker (talk) 19:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Format of the cast section at Avengers: Infinity War

There is a discussion regarding the format and content of the cast section at Avengers: Infinity War. All opinions are welcome.—TriiipleThreat (talk) 21:40, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

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