Wikipedia talk:Proposed deletion

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Why is providing a reason for contesting a PROD not required?

It seems a bit unusual that we allow, for instance, COI-SPAs to blank PROD templates without explanation, but we don't allow the pages to be re-PRODded in those cases. If the PRODder proceeded to open an AFD with the same rationale this page requires them to provide up-front, and the one who contested the PROD shows up and says "oppose" without providing a reason, and no one else comments, the AFD closer will throw out the oppose !vote as not having a clear policy-based rationale, and the page will be deleted, no? Hijiri 88 (やや) 07:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

  • The idea behind PROD is that it's supposed to be for uncontroversial deletions. Therefore there isn't a need to have the same kind of review that we do for deletion discussions in controversial or potentially controversial cases. If somebody removed the PROD template then they are objecting to the proposed deletion and the deletion is therefore at least somewhat controversial, even if the person didn't articulate their reasoning. AfD does work in a similar way to PROD, if someone nominates an article for deletion and there is no meaningful opposition but also not much support then the discussion will likely be closed as WP:SOFTDELETE, which functions exactly like a PROD deletion. Hut 8.5 09:30, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Unfortunately, somewhere down the line, the freedom to remove a PROD for any or no reason has started being misused by people aiming to annoy editors performing what usually turns out to be uncontroversial maintenance. I wouldn't oppose changing the PROD rules to make leaving a rationale for dePRODding mandatory. It'd make it easier to identify people only in it for the obstructionism. On the other hand, tools like Twinkle make just starting an AfD easier than it used to be and I'd also endorse the nominator saying "Deprodded without rationale by [[User:Blerplederp]]", which would serve the same purpose. Reyk YO! 10:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The point of PROD is that anybody can remove them, no reasons need to be given. Like Rekk suggests, adding "Deprodded by [[user name] OR article creator], no reason given" is useful, and certainly something I have been doing at AFD for a number of years now. GiantSnowman 10:13, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I oppose this. In general, we should allow article creators to request a formal discussion before the deletion of articles they've created, without requiring a reason from them. Even in the case of COI editors, this is beneficial, as further re-creations can be deleted WP:G4. power~enwiki (π, ν) 15:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

  • Improve PRODs are for uncontroversial deletions and so don't provide support for discussion. Typically, a PROD is placed with Twinkle, which provides a prompt and then takes care of everything else. Contesting the prod is less clear because there's no button or Twinkle option for this. You have to edit the page, find the template and remove it. The reason for the prod then goes away with the template, leaving nothing behind. Myself, I then usually go to the talk page to place the {{oldprodfull}} template. I might put some other templates on the talk page but leave it at that.
The reasons for removing the prod are implicit and obvious; that one doesn't want the page deleted and doesn't regard the nominal reason as adequate. The edit summary is not a suitable place to get into details. Edit summaries are supposed to be brief and to describe the nature of the edit. Per WP:REVTALK, we should "Avoid using edit summaries to carry on debates or negotiation over the content ... [as] this creates an atmosphere where the only way to carry on discussion is to revert other editors!". The edit summary created by Twinkle when the prod is placed doesn't contain any reasoning and so, for symmetry, the closing summary shouldn't either.
If you look at the early archives here, you can see that the process was kludged together in 2006. The original process had a log file but I suppose all that has gone away with the toolserver. There was some talk of recording reasons in the log but I'm not sure how much of that was done as I've never seen a log.
To improve the process, the prod template should contain a button which deactivates it and takes care of any updates like the {{oldprodfull}} template. The process is supposed to be lightweight and so should be streamlined to be easy and fuss free.
Andrew D. (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is no question of requiring a reason to be given for removing a PROD when there is no requirement to give any reason for placing a PROD, let alone give a valid reason for placing a PROD. Unfortunately, somewhere down the line, the freedom to place a PROD for any or no reason has started being misused by people perpetrating deletion sprees. More than half the PRODs I have seen (and I have seen many) were placed for demonstrably invalid reasons, typically on articles that were notable or eligible for WP:ATD, such as merger or redirection. The last thing we want to do is make that problem worse. Counter proposals (1) Require a valid reason to be given when placing a PROD. (2) PROD should be confined to topics that do not require expert knowledge to assess notability (in the same way as CSD A7). James500 (talk) 19:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
Speaking as someone who almost saw their first article creation in years get speedied because of an incompetent "deletionist",[1] back when "deletionists" were apparently an actual thing to be worried about, I think (2) is at least interesting, but the problem is that that 2012 incident made be a better contributor, and we need more better contributors who write articles that properly demonstrate notability off the bat; we don't need more garbage articles penned by snowflakes who will leave the project when ever anyone criticizes their work. The problem now, as opposed to 2012, is much more with editors removing PRODs and opposing deletion/redirection at AFDs in specialized topic areas, as far as I can see; Andrew, who removed the PROD that inspired this thread, is the worst offender in this area, but he's hardly the only one, and I basically think that at present there is far too much of a burden placed on the "pro-deletion" parties in these cases, given that our content policies generally tend to favour removal, not preservation, of bad content, so both James's proposals would actually make this worse. Hijiri 88 (やや) 20:27, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support If we require a reason to add a PROD, why not require a reason to remove one? Otherwise you are undermining the judgement of the person who placed the PROD and not placing the burden of explanation on the PROD remover. Surely if there is a good reason for removing a PROD, the person can explain it. Not giving a reason is pretty much always in my experience due to the person taking ownership of an article and not wanting to give a reason such as "I want this article to stay because I like it/made it".ZXCVBNM (TALK) 22:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • The problem with what you say is that we presently do not require a reason to be given for placing a PROD. Anyone can slap a PROD on anything for any reason, no matter how absurd, or for no reason at all. James500 (talk) 01:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • oppose any change. I’ve prodded articles, had them de-prodded without reason, and then taken them to AfD. I rarely have any problem with someone not giving a reason; whether it’s the creator of the article or someone watching the page the AfD process means that if they still object they now have to give their reasons. The AfD is the time for discussions and arguments so it makes sense for them if they want to explain their reasoning to do it there. I.e. it works fine now.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 01:49, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Support I guess this is the second time in as many months that I've proposed an amendment to policy without realizing it. In case anyone else (a closer?) doesn't realize that proposing an amendment was what I was doing, I should clarify that I do support requiring rationales for both proposing and unproposing deletion. Hijiri 88 (やや) 10:16, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - it's annoying, yes, but allowing editors to keep removing PRODs for no reason is the best solution. GiantSnowman 10:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The PROD process is solely for uncontroversial deletions. The fact that someone is removing it means that, by definition, it is not uncontroversial and not an appropriate candidate for that process. We have other processes for contentious deletions, and complaining editors need to get with the program on needing to get consensus rather than try to misuse the PROD process to bash through contentious deletions. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:24, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The process seems to be working well now; I don't see a compelling reason for a change. If someone improves and article & then removes a PROD, that's very different from a SPA removing it with no improvements. AfD would quickly follow in the latter case. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Consistent user experience across processes: suggestions

This is a follow-up to part of Andrew Davidson's comments in the discussion above. I have long felt that process inconsistencies make it too easy for an inexperienced article contributor to stumble into trouble:

  1. An article creator who seeks to oppose a CSD is not permitted to remove the notice from the article. If they do, they fall under an escalating process from {{uw-speedy1}} to {{uw-speedy4}} and a block.
  2. An article creator who seeks to oppose a PROD is guided to remove the notice from the article.
  3. An article creator who seeks to oppose an AFD is not permitted to remove the notice from the article. If they do, they fall under an escalating process from {{uw-afd1}} to {{uw-afd4}} and a block.

An opposed PROD will often be followed by an AFD (especially if the opposer provided no persuasive rationale), so the inexperienced editor finds that the behaviour which was stipulated at one moment is sanctioned in the next.

Inconsistency is poor for editor experience and possibly retention.

PROD is the odd-one-out of the 3 processes and so seems like the one to fix? For example, relative consistency could be accomplished if the PROD notice on the User Talk page provided an optional rationale area and CSD-like button which could trigger (1) copy of the PROD (and PROD2) content, along with the opposition rationale if offered, into {{oldprodfull}} on the article Talk page and (2) removal of the PROD content from the article. This would not prevent a PROD being removed as part of normal article editing, but would improve user experience and (to some extent) information retention.

Aside from that suggestion, and again noting Andrew D.'s observations about ambitions for use of the log files when the PROD process was introduced, it could be worth reviewing what is logged and whether it can be reused, for example for a bot addition of {{oldprodfull}} when a new article instance is created or other assistance to minimise re-nominations?

AllyD (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
  • I disagree. CSD is the odd one out. Article creators used to be able to remove these, and there is no reason why an article creator should not be allowed to remove, for example, a CSD A7 or A9 as these are not unlikely to be erroneously placed, and do not relate to harmful content such as attack pages. James500 (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
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