Wikipedia talk:In the news/Recurring items

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Proposed Addition: PDC World Darts Championship

NAC: No consensus. There are a few more support !votes than opposes, although many of them have single-sentence reasoning. The opposition raise detailed concerns, and the point about there being two rival world championships of similar standard was never properly addressed (and wasn't raised until after many of the support !votes). Overall the two sides are roughly balanced and there's no clear consensus here, so the status quo prevails. Stick to ITN/C for now; we can reassess once we see how the next couple of nominations get on. Modest Genius talk 13:56, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Due to its current nomination at WP:ITN/C, it has come to my attention that the World Darts Championship is not currently listed on ITN/R. In fact, the current nomination is facing opposition as a result. I was surprised to find this, as, particularly in the United Kingdom and Ireland (large sources of readership on, darts is extremely popular, and is a very large sport in terms of following, exceeding many other sports events currently listed at ITN/R. The World Championship is the darts tournament of the year, attracting massive viewership and the attention of RS's. 1 2 3. Consequentially, I feel that it warrants a listing at ITN/R given its popularity and prestige; this is apt as ITN/R exists to facilitate the rapid posting of articles which are deemed to be of significant interest to the readership of the encyclopedia - thus, a listing is certainly warranted.
Thoughts? - Stormy clouds (talk) 00:04, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

There is far too much sports on ITN already. I took the liberty of fixing the "opposition" diff in your edit, it was missing a zero for some reason zzz (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Wait let it pass at ITN/C first. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 01:12, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support (especially after the current nom is posted), I don't see why not. Davey2116 (talk) 03:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Wait per CosmicAdventure. Now isn't the time to add this, especially if the nomination isn't posted. Banedon (talk) 03:31, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    Support the scale of the event is good enough. Banedon (talk) 06:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support I agree that this is larger than some other events we have. Neljack (talk) 03:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support it's good enough for snooker, then it's good enough for darts. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. If we keep getting articles like the one that was posted for the current version of this event, along with what seems to be its popularity, this is a no-brainer. Glad to have viewed the article and learned something. As for too much sports, we are close to removing the Dakar Rally above. 331dot (talk) 07:43, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Two of these "shared" £400,000. Footballers get £400,000 a month. But I guess it's going to pass anyway, so I'll just have to accept the Main Page is a joke. zzz (talk) 16:26, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    What a bizarre position to adopt. The winner of Wimbledon gets £2.2m which isn't actually that much more than this, yet you'd hardly see anyone complaining about us posting the winner of that competition. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    So, that's about 5 to 10 times the amount then? zzz (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    Yes? About as much as Pogba earns in a month. What's your point? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:55, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    What's your point? Why should this be ITNR? It's clearly not a big deal, even in the world of sports. zzz (talk) 20:57, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    I've already opined, based on how much interest it raises, that it's the top-level competition in the sport, etc etc. You just don't like it. So perhaps you could come up with something better than a comparison of the prize money. After all, it's all about the cheese. "clearly not a big deal"? Heh! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    Someone used the prize money to justify posting it on ITN, it seems we agree that doesn't work. I haven't seen any other justification, apart from you just like it, for some reason. " it's the top-level competition in the sport" so, every "sport" gets automatic top billing on the Main Page, since when? zzz (talk) 21:05, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    You clearly haven't read what I wrote either here or at the ITNC. But never mind, I'm not wasting an iota more time discussing this with you. Bye! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
    So you gave a well-thought-out convincing argument - I just missed it. Of course you did, my mistake. (Here it is: "It's good enough for snooker, then it's good enough for darts." Nope, I saw that.) Look, this is quite possibly the best advertising the "sport" has got, which is a clear sign of a problem (as is claiming to have presented arguments that don't exist). In my opinion, of course. zzz (talk) 21:12, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment There are actually two World Championships, the PDC World Darts Championship and the rival BDO World Darts Championship due to the 1993 split. The BDO doesn't have as much prize money but is shown on the BBC so should maybe be under consideration too.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • This is important. Commentators here not familiar with darts should read Split in darts. We need to decide if we wish to post one or both of these competing events. —LukeSurl t c 18:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Agree on importance of the distinction. Given the comparative caliber of competition (as a viewer, Lakeside is inferior, and the world's best darts players participate in PDC. Thus, I would neglect to include the Lakeside contest, despite it being aired on BBC. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose not at the level that would merit automatic inclusion (conditional on quality). Certainly does not mean that I would not support inclusion in some years or even all years, but this should be decided on a case-by-case basis. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:19D8:8218:7FA9:C43B (talk) 17:14, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support, including recognizing that PDC seems more significant than BDO and thus preference towards that. --Masem (t) 20:45, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose ITNR is such a cudgel against discussion, we should not be so quick to enshrine items that may be subject to legitimate opposition. I would suggest we wait for two successful ITNC noms prior to adding a new ITNR. GCG (talk) 01:21, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per GreatCaesarsGhost. ITN has no lack of sport. More importantly, this was posted, there was consensus, but I didn't see any sign of it "In the news". In the age of digital media, finding site which published a wire story or short summary to me != "In the news". I rely on the aggregators Google and Bing to give me some idea if a story is actually trending. Also didn't see it on the front page of ESPN or Fox Sports. Does a regional bias apply here? Sure, probably, but when UEFA or the EPL wraps, I still see some mention of it on this side of the world. #twocents anyway. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 02:06, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per GreatCaesarsGhost and not seeing this as front page news on an annual basis. Also, don't like long-term decisions being made during very quiet and relatively low engagement period of early January. -- Fuzheado | Talk 10:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Given that the Championship is on in December/January, it seems the most apt time to discuss it, as its importance and significance is fresh is everyone's minds and easily researched. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:07, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support one of the purposes of ITN/R is to give appropriate "weight" to different sports in the ITN rotation. One annual posting for darts seems appropriate. Practically, I'd be happy for every sport that has an international professional scene to have an ITN/R item. In terms of the split, it seems clear that the PDC Championship is the premier event. It is essentially an editorial decision to favour the PDC over the BDO but this is a necessary one. Posting both, particularly as their blurbs would likely co-exist in the template, would be too much weight for this sport. --LukeSurl t c 11:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support What better way to highlight for the wider community the recurring problems with this section than to post this on the front page. Gamaliel (talk) 13:11, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
    I don't know - Crufts, possibly. Worth considering. zzz (talk) 13:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support PDC Championship only as it seems to have the higher quality players, and a (relatively) higher profile these days.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:12, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
  • OpposeTiddlywinks will be next. Sca (talk) 14:33, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
    You think the world tiddlywinks championship final would have in excess of two million domestic televsion viewers? The Rambling Man (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
If professional 'wrestling' can draw upwards of 20 million U.S. viewers, why not? Sca (talk) 16:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
You nailed it yourself. It's not professional, and it's not a sport. And you know that many more people live in the US than in the UK, right? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
TRM, my previous post was intended to be ironic. Sca (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed removal - Space Exploration

The type of events described here generally will be posted if nominated. However, tagging these as ITNR compromises the reasonable discretion ITNC has to weigh specifics of the scenario (e.g. Rockets evolve over time; is this one really "new?" Is Bahrain sponsoring and hosting a SpaceX mission "indigenous?") as some editors will dismiss such concerns as improper notability debates. ITNR should only be used when the event fits cleanly within a black & white paradigm; a king is enthroned, a film wins the Oscar. These type of events include a level of ambiguity that doesn't fit within the ITNR's stated purpose. GCG (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

ITNR is not meant to be black or white, just to avoid that the general class of events that the INTR relates to should not be questioned. Individual events can be questioned for ITN posting due to unusual circumstances, for example. --Masem (t) 06:26, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

[Closed] Proposed removal: Grammys

No consensus and proposal withdrawn. The arguments boil down to two basic strands - "Is the event notable enough to be on the ITN/R list?" and "Does it matter that lack of quality updates mean that it hasn't been posted for the last 4 years?". Unfortunately there isn't a consensus about either. As the second question could be asked independently of any specific entry on this list, that might be a discussion worth having (as long as the general question does not get conflated with any examples used). I do not foresee that consensus for or against the Grammys appearing on this list will be achieved without either an answer to the question about updates or an article about the edition of the awards having a quality update.
Two other points raised in the discussion are worth mentioning here: (1) There is no consensus against the principle of a music awards ceremony on ITN/R, provided that the individual one is sufficiently notable. (2) Whether ITN/R as a whole is doing a good job would need to be a completely separate discussion to achieve any consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 14:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two years ago I proposed removing the Grammy awards from ITN/R. My reasoning then, as it is now, was that the article simply was not receiving sufficient editor attention in order to warrant its recurring posting. The counter-argument was made that if a recurring event is sufficiently notable enough to warrant posting, then the article quality should not matter as far as qualifying for ITN/R. However, I submit to you that if an event truly were notable on Wikipedia, rather than within the microcosm of the media, then the article's quality would reflect that by increased attention. As it is, we did not post the Grammys in 2016; we did not post it in 2017; and, barring a heroic effort by our editor corps, it does not look as if we will post it this year either. This is in addition to this year's Grammys hitting a viewership low this year.

Of course I understand there is a propensity to keep major media brouhahas on ITN based on the prolific and luscious history of Hollywood in the media and entertainment world, but given the consistent failure to post this on ITN, I think it would behoove us to assess events like this based on their actual significance at that time rather than that assuming its notability based on historical significance. One year of not posting can be written off as a fluke or an exception. Three years of not posting demands further scrutiny.--WaltCip (talk) 12:14, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

  • A point of order: is ITNR really providing any value at this point? What does it really do that ITNC cannot handle on its own? GCG (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
    • Try to see the situation when the next Boat Race is nominated and there was no INTR for it. --Masem (t) 14:19, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
      • That's exactly the point -- ITNR keeps getting TBR posted despite a lack of consensus to post. If we look at its initial nom to ITNR or its subsequent nom for deletion, the consensus is split pretty evenly. We enshrined it to ITNR by a very low standard, but demand a super-majority to pull it back. Other items (especially those added long ago) are worse: the Sakharov was added by a consensus of TWO editors, as was the Abel. The Japan Series citation doesn't even mention ITNR. Contrast this with the College Football Playoff, which has consistently been kept off ITN despite strong support because there has been strong opposition. ITNR suffers from the tyranny of status quo: the absence of consensus keeps us from removing an existing item, but keeps up from adding a new one, even if the consensus is equal. GCG (talk) 17:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
        • This is the sort of thing that I'm hoping to address with the above nom. Rather than presume significance based on an item being on ITNR (which is begging the question), it would be best to assess items like this on their own merits. The lack of updates for an event in the Western hemisphere makes me question its actual notability, even if it is the biggest music award show in the world (and I question the notability of even that particular category).--WaltCip (talk) 18:53, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
          • Do keep in mind that WP is still voluntary, so certain areas will attract more people than others. I would not try to judge on the importance of any event like the Grammys due to a lack of editing. Clearly the awards were updated, but not the prose, suggesting that it due attention to those that like to trainspot (which we need but we'd like them to go further and develop more prose). --Masem (t) 18:56, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I would support removal strictly on the basis of the fact that now three years running no one has bothered to do more than a data-dump upgrade to the article. Literally all that would be needed is 2 paragraphs to describe the ceremony broadly (I'm sure more could be written) but it hasn't happened, showing there's no editor interest in the quality of the article. I would not dismiss the Grammys as irrelevant due to lower vierership or other external factors - it still is the largest recognized award in the music area. It just lacks the editor attention that we expect that ITNR stories carry. --Masem (t) 14:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal In years where the quality of the article was sufficient, I cannot forsee any reasonable objection to posting on significance grounds. --Jayron32 15:09, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal Lack of editor interest in the article over the last couple of years does not diminish the inherent notability of the event. The point of ITN/R is to speed up the process and focus on the quality of the article. I see no need to have a debate every year over whether the Grammys are significant enough - they are, as the most high-profile music awards in the industry.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:21, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
    • ITNR is not just about notability of the event, but that there are editors out there to make sure that articles will be updated to be near quality for posting. An ITNR entry that has routinely shown no appropriate improvements in the target article for several years running is wasted ITNC's time, and thus ITNR should be removed. A one-off year is fine, as long as its not a pattern, which unfortunately the Grammies have shown. Grammies can still be nominated for ITNC, and if over the next couple of years they show proper updates, then we can talk about readding it. --Masem (t) 15:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
      • Could you show me in written policy or guidelines where it says the above, especially where you say " there are editors out there to make sure that articles will be updated to be near quality for posting." I'd like to read more about that. --Jayron32 17:25, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal as per Pawnkingthree. All removing from ITNR would do is add a needless notability discussion every year. --LukeSurl t c 16:47, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Remove. I think that both lack of editor interest and declining viewership of the event itself means this should not be presumed notable any longer. We can always readd it if that changes. 331dot (talk) 17:47, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Remove Not for the reason given, but because the Grammys have long been seen as a joke (Anyone remember Homer Simpson failing twice to give his away?) and out of touch with the cultural zeitgeist. The industry doesn't care, sales are not impacted (as they are for Oscar or BAFTA), and the ratings for the show are atrocious. The lack of updates to our article is symptomatic of that. Just because it's the premier event doesn't make it a premier event. GCG (talk) 12:51, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment - So, for the third straight year, the Grammys have dropped off the ITN/C queue without being posted, as no one has put forth an effort towards bringing the article quality up to snuff. We'll be here again same time next year with the exact same objections, and then it'll be four years straight that no one gave a flying toss about the Grammys, and so on. Surely, if something were so notable as to merit inclusion in ITN/R, there would be a much greater propensity towards the improvement of its article, yes? Yet, the Moon drifting into the shadow of the Earth - as it will do on a routine basis - was ultimately considered more notable and its article quality more sufficient to merit posting. Personally, I think the Moon in this case is more deserving to be on ITN/R than the Grammys.--WaltCip (talk) 11:48, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal - the fact that article quality has lately been inconsistent does not diminish the notability of music's top awards events. Neither, incidentally, does dwindling viewership, or the fact that some critics are unhappy with the winners this year. This will still be nominated next year, and the year after, as it is notable, and will remain so in the foreseeable future. ITN/R is about notability concerns, and I don't think that these are justified in the case of the Grammys. Stormy clouds (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
As WaltCip states, this has not been posted for three years now. That's not inconsistent; the consistency is in its not being posted. It would be one thing if it was posted one year, not the next, and posted again the following year. That's not the case here. There is also the matter that viewership of the Grammys has been on a decline, as well(despite it being loaded with many musical acts). 331dot (talk) 16:20, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
The Super Bowl has viewing figures which have been trending down for consecutive seasons now. I maintain that viewing figures alone, in an era when terrestrial TV viewership is on the wane anyway, should not be the primary determining factor of notability. Moreover, ITN/R exists to earmark notable events, which the Grammys are among in my view. I don't believe that we should disregard its notability because of a recent lack of notability. If the article quality is not present, then it should not be posted - many ITN/R events are not even nominated due to the absence of a quality update. Yet the update does not dictate the notability of an event, and ergo we don't need to purge it because of this recent trend, in my opinion. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
As said before, I question whether or not a "top awards event for music", whether or not it happens to be the Grammys, meets the threshold of notability that ITN sets for posting items.--WaltCip (talk) 16:42, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
You are entitled to ask that question. I feel that it absolutely does meet that threshold, arguably to a greater extent than many other items that are posted at ITN. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
The music industry remains a $10+ billion industry [1], it's significant as an art form. We should want to post its top awards (which the Grammys are among), just as we would with film, literature, and television. The reason to remove is simply due to lack of interest by the appropriate WP editors to get the Grammy awards article to spec in a reasonable amount of time. --Masem (t) 17:27, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Seeing as I still don't have a consensus to go forward with this removal, I will withdraw my request. Rest assured however that I will be back here same time next year should the issue recur. An event that's so notable should have no trouble getting posted to ITN, if it truly is that notable.--WaltCip (talk) 13:23, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
    • The notability wasn't an issue (plenty of sources easily, worldwide), but the lack of volunteer effort to bring the article up to decent quality shortly after the ceremony, which absolutely should be a factor in determining ITRN. If no one is regularly going to be bothered to do a mediocre amount of work to improve it, then we shouldn't be featuring it as an ITNR, until it can be shown there's editors willing to do that. --Masem (t) 14:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Proposed removal: Super Bowl

No. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ITN is meant to be for international news, and the Super Bowl doesn't really make news outside of the States. Make it a headline on Current events/Sports or something; it doesn't need to be in the worldwide news section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nixinova (talkcontribs)

@Nixinova: You seem to have a misconception here. ITN is not and never has been "for international news" only. If it was, very little would be posted as most events do not have international scope. In fact, we specifically state on the ITNC page: "Please do not oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." As I don't recall seeing you post at ITNC before, you may wish to learn about what ITN is for at WP:ITN. 331dot (talk) 18:40, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Per 331dot, your premise is flawed from the get-go, and so your request to remove this from ITN/R holds no water.--WaltCip (talk) 18:44, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'm amazed I need to justify inclusion of the marquee championship in the sport on the ITNR list, but the Super Bowl does indeed make news outside of the US: BBC, Irish Times, and even in Times of India. 331dot (talk) 18:48, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
In Germany too. 331dot (talk) 18:59, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
Can we snow close this? There is no way that the biggest event in the US sporting calendar is going to be removed.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Withdrawn] Proposed Removal: Winter Olympics Closing Ceremony

Withdrawn by nominator per comment below. Guess we'll see again in 2022. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:10, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Given that it merits a blurb listing at ITN for the opening ceremony, and a listing at ongoing throughout the contest, there is no denying that the Winter Olympics is well represented at ITN/R section. However, including the closing ceremony - the point of the games where fanfare has died down - seems like overkill, especially given the diminished stature of the Winter Games compared to their Summer brethren (they are simply not as popular). We don't post the closing ceremony of either Paralympic Games, and I would argue that posting the closing ceremony of the Winter Olympics is not necessary either, given the attention paid to it and its relative popularity. An opening ceremony blurb and an ongoing link should be more than sufficient, in my view, especially as the closing ceremony does not even involve sports, but is rather about denoting the fact that the sport is over. For many people, it is the lesser ceremony of the other Olympic Games. Therefore, there is no reason for this to be listed at ITN/R in my opinion. Thoughts? Stormy clouds (talk) 21:58, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Well, just one broad set of thoughts at this time, the "ongoing" isn't a guarantee, it needs the quality updates. The opening ceremony is not a guarantee, it needs a decent article. The closing ceremonies of most such global competitions are usually notable and well updated. On this occasion, the closing ceremony article has been ignored. Unfortunately for this nom, the 2014 and 2010 closing ceremonies were both posted, so this is clearly a glitch. Maybe consider proposing removal if we don't post the 2022 closing ceremony? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
@The Rambling Man: - Whoops! Withdrawn nomination, as I missed the trend pattern of previous nominations - there is no pattern to justify removal. Apologies. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:10, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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