Wikipedia talk:Did you know

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"Did you know...?"
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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed.

Do you have a suggestion for improving DYK, or would like to comment on the suggestions of others? Have your say at Wikipedia:Did you know/2017 reform proposals.

Wiki Ed project active at DYK

Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/Johns_Hopkins_University/Introduction_to_the_History_of_Modern_Medicine_(Spring_2017) has made a few noms I've noticed. Some of them have stylistic problems, but let's try to handle these with more than our usual gentleness and kindness. If you see a medicine-related article, check the primary author's userpage to see if it's related to this project. EEng 06:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

We can expect another influx of DYK nominations next week, when the second set of articles go live. There were over two dozen GA nominations a couple of weeks ago, of articles that had been part of the first round of DYK noms in late February/early March. They have, unfortunately, not been very responsive in a number of cases here at DYK, so several noms have been closed already and there's one I imagine I'll mark for closure in the next few days. The final class session is on April 28. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:33, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 5

@MB: @SL93: @HaEr48:

The source (footnote 5) (and the article) does not say anything about the source of the nickname. The place is used for pilot training by the US military. Another hook could certainly be devised along those lines. Yoninah (talk) 19:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

I would just remove the part "by the US military". `SL93 (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@Yoninah and SL93: Lisa Speakman photographer says pilots gave it the nickname. — Maile (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
But we should't rely on self-published source? I misread the footnote #5, I thought "where U.S. and foreign militaries train pilots and test jets in the gorge nicknamed Star Wars Canyon." supports the attribution to the pilots, but re-reading it again, it doesn't. I agree we can skip the "by the US military" unless we have better source. HaEr48 (talk) 20:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@MB: @SL93: @Maile66: @Yoninah: How about

... that Death Valley's Rainbow Canyon is nicknamed Star Wars Canyon due to its supposed similarity with Luke Skywalker's home planet?

This fact is mentioned in the source. HaEr48 (talk) 20:45, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

This is weird - I have this page watch-listed and saw you posted. But the ping has not (as of yet) shown up on my notifications. Anyway, if you go with your suggested hook, somebody needs to put Luke Skywalker in the article and source its mention. — Maile (talk) 20:56, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Everyone, I just got home and saw this. The article includes this statement: "The area is part of the R-2508 Complex administered by Edwards (the R-2508 Complex handbook actually refers to the canyon as Star Wars Canyon and the path through the canyon connecting Owens Valley in the west and Panamint Valley in the east as the Jedi Transition.)" with a ref. I don't see a problem with the original hook. Star Wars Canyon IS used by the military and it is even in a written document. MB (talk) 01:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@SL93: @Maile66: @Yoninah: MB 01:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

The fact that the US military handbook refers to the canyon as Star Wars Canyon does not make the US military the originator of the nickname. Moreover, this reference to the US military handbook is not the inline cite for the sentence about the canyon's nickname. Yoninah (talk) 14:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I removed that part of the hook from prep 5 so at the very least it won't need to be pulled. SL93 (talk) 16:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I think this is getting a little nit-pickey about the definition of nicknamed. A nickname is a substitute name for something. The canyon is nicknamed Star Wars Canyon by the military, i.e. the miltary calls it that. That is not an incorrect statement even if they were not the first ones to do so. MB 17:06, 18 April 2017 (UTC) Nothing claims that the military was the originator of the nickname. 'Nicknamed' can be a synonym for 'called'. (offline now until tonight). MB 17:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yoninah, I think the current hook is just flat-sounding. No one has responded about my above response that using "nicknamed" should be OK. But if you can't accept that, what about one of these"?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by MB (talkcontribs) 15:54, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Yoninah I wouldn't mind seeing either one of the above latest two hooks. As written, I think the sources cover it. What do you think? — Maile (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I have disambiguated the two new hooks for you. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
@Maile66: Hi, I just got back online. This one's fine:
  • Oh, I just noticed it's still in the prep area. I made the change. Yoninah (talk) 22:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Multiple hooks for Queue 4 being discussed at WPERRORS

Heads up. Several hooks in Queue 4 are being discussed at WP:ERRORS without notifying the nominator, promoter, or anyone else. — Maile (talk) 21:40, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Note, there's not a single requirement for anyone at ERRORS to dig into DYK arcane logic and find who is responsible for what. So the "without notifying the nominator, promoter, or anyone else" shouldn't come as a surprise at all to anyone here, nor should the fact that errors have made it all the way the through the various DYK quality gates to the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:50, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Nevertheless it is still a simple courtesy which is seemingly lacking here on this site. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:02, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Nope, there's not one jot of an obligation for someone reporting an error to find out where it came from. That most come from DYK is another issue. But not notifying those involved, why would you think otherwise? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Its purely illogical to avoid contacting the users that are the most familiar with the items being discussed, and not something that should be happening, its like discussing a topic one doesnt understand, but actively avoiding any expert that does understand it.--Kevmin § 22:26, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, how does a regular viewer of Wikipedia know who to contact at DYK once an error has made through all those quality gates? Why should they bother finding out? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:30, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
We're talking about the editors over at ERRORS, not the IPs who post their corrections there. If something is so serious that editors need to deal with it, it would be nice to drop us a courtesy ping at WT:DYK to let us know when a hook is under discussion at ERRORS. Yoninah (talk) 14:46, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Problems are likely to be fixed more quickly if the nominator/reviewer are made aware of the discussion. If the person who raised the error does not know who to ping, it is easy for an experienced DYKer to figure it out. Antony–22 (talkcontribs) 16:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the point is being missed here. There are no instructions at ERRORS to find out the originator of the errors in the DYK section. Why would anyone go to the trouble of trying to discover who to ping? Yes, ideally, someone should do the research, find out the nomination template buried somewhere on Wikipedia, locate the nominator, reviewer and promoter from there, and let them know, but in reality, when an error gets as far as the main page, it's tough luck, it'll be "fixed" or removed however is seen fit, and probably (and hopefully) as quickly as practicable. Wikipedia's main page is not a sandbox for DYK, if poor quality makes it all the way there, it deserves to be shelved as soon as possible, regardless of "courtesy pings". It would be nice if the review process at DYK meant such errors didn't get so quickly promoted and displayed on the main page, but it's not an ideal world, so we just have to live with it. Anyone working on the DYK project can watchlist the ERRORS page, and people actually cared that much about their hooks, they'd follow them all the way through to their conclusion (although I accept given DYK's arcane nature, that's practically impossible) so they'd actually know there was an issue. Please put the onus back onto the nominators rather than those who care about the quality of the main page to do something about this kind of thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 04:47, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

With a simple ping, Maile alerted the nominator, reviewer, and prep promoter to a complaint at ERRORS and I immediately weighed in. A ping is no "trouble" and immediately gets the involved DYK editors on the case. Yoninah (talk) 09:27, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
For most people who go to ERRORS, a ping is a lot of trouble since they have no idea where and how to find the nominator, reviewer, and promotor. And many of them don't like to be "shamed" (simply being named in an error report is often enough to raise accusations that people are being shamed, bullied, ...), so doing the right thing is hardly possible here anyway. See e.g. some sections below this, where Maile66 states "No moaning, please, no whining, no complaining about the imperfections of other people.", just two sentences after they have complained about " I guess it's too much to hope for that any admin who would yank a hook from the top queue within hours of it being on the main page, would move another hook up to fill the gap. A simple courtesy." Basically, when people try to get errors of the main page (or prevent them from appearing on the main page), they need to jump through all sorts of hoops to please the regulars here. Well, no. People who are willing to do the additional stuff are of course welcome to do so, but the main thing is getting rid of the errors, not pleasing editors or doing courtesies. And certainly not state that we shouldn't moan about the imprefections of other people unless they are admins doing something some DYK regulars don't like.
Simply take the example given by Yoninah here as a reason why we should ping the reviewer and so on. "I have no problem with "Nazi". Yoninah (talk) 23:44, 19 April 2017 (UTC)" Fine, but you having a problem or no problem with this is totally irrelevant, your opinion as the reviewer isn't worth more than that of anyone else, so the added value of pinging you and not another editor is nill. It's fine that you weigh in, but nothing would be lost in this case (and in most cases) by not pinging the people previously involved. WP:OWN and all that... Fram (talk) 10:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Fram, Fram, Fram ... you have been around as an admin since the earliest days of DYK. Therefore, you know well that yanking a hook from a queue next in line for the main page, without replacing it with another approved hook, creates a state of scrambling around to find another admin who happens to be around to take care of it. Not good. Also, you are mis-representing Yoninah's comments at WP:ERRORS. Yoninah was responding to a ping, and commented therein to the original poster's question about whether or not National Socialist could be changed to Nazi. — Maile (talk) 00:46, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Make sure no blatant errors make it into the queues, and you won't need to "find another admin". But if you prefer, I'll simply remove the hook completely instead of leaving a line to indicate where the replacement hook should come. That way, if not a single admin willing to add a hook can be found, then we'll at least not have an empty "that ..." line on the main page. I am not going to add another hook when I remove one, I have zero interest in doing that. I don't care whether DYK has zero, one or 25 hooks on the main page at one time, as long as they are correct (and BLP compliant and a bit thoughtful and neutral and so on). Childish replies like your "Fram, Fram, Fram..." may make yourself very happy, but are not going to change anything. I'll not even bother to try to comprehend how you claim I am "misrepresenting" Yoninah's comments at errors. Did I change what they said there, did I attribute statements to them they never made? Or are you just trying to find fault with my statement, but can't find anything coherent or relevant in it to criticise and thus use the vague "misrepresent" without any indication of what I actually misrepresented? Stop wasting my time with incoherent ramblings which are a lot more disruptive than someone removing a blatantly incorrect hook from the main page. Next time, when you feel the need to reply here, first think again on what Wikipedia is really about. Fram (talk) 07:24, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Anti-Bullying Day?

Does Wikipedia recognize Anti-Bullying Day for its special occasion holding area? If so, would it be possible to suggest Jerry London (an article I recently posted)? He committed suicide after being bullied by an American promoter. Thank you. 72.74.201.132 (talk) 03:57, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Special occasions don't need to be recognized. Just make the nomination and say what day you want it to appear, though it makes sense to say why that day is significant. EEng 04:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
This nomination has been placed direct into the special holding area but has not yet been reviewed. It needs to be moved to the Nominations (awaiting approval) page. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:33, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 Done Yoninah (talk) 22:10, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 4

@CeeGee: @Hawkeye7: The Katakekaumene page which is linked in this hook translates Katakekaumene as "burnt lands", not "fire-born". Perhaps that page or this page (Kula Volcanic Geopark) should be adjusted? Yoninah (talk) 21:48, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Yoninah: The hook's source is [1], and there it says "named Kula as “KATAKEKAUMENE” (fire-born) because of the coal-black lava". I could not find the pharase "burnt landa" anywhere. Maybe you can advise. CeeGee 04:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@CeeGee: so could you change the definition in the Katakekaumene and cite to that source for "fire-born"? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 12:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@Yoninah:  Done CeeGee 16:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@CeeGee: thanks, but I'm wondering if your source for "fire-born" is one against many. See all these Google hits for "burned land". Anyway, what does "fire-born" mean? Perhaps we should go with "burned land" here and in the other article. Yoninah (talk) 22:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
@Yoninah: Unfortunately, I cannot judge the difference. Someone with Greek or even Ancient Greek knowledge would be able to say more about this. I would accept your proposal of change anyway.CeeGee 04:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Image slot

I have not had a DYK before, I am interested in getting a slot where the image I found can be displayed. It is hard to find good quality sports photos. Not sure how this works, can I move it back further so I can have the image displayed? My nomination is Caleb Swanigan. It is in the prep 4 group. Kees08(Talk) 03:46, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Congratulations on your first DYK! Only another editor can move or edit your hook while it's in prep. I was the one who promoted your hook and I felt the image you submitted looked cut-off. Looking at your article, the infobox image might have been a better choice. But IMO the hook works much better in the last slot, ending the whole set on an "up" note. You'll see, you'll get a lot of hits there. Yoninah (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I was afraid the infobox image would not look got at that resolution, which is why I ended up with the other. Works for me, thanks for the info! Kees08(Talk) 21:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Lead (picture) hook pulled from next queue

Template:Did you know nominations/Mexican Federal Highway 40D @Raymie, Gerda Arendt, and Yoninah:

As always with first, largest, tallest, ... hooks, don't just check that the source makes that claim, but also check that no other sources contradict it, or that the record has been beaten since. In this case, the Baluarte Bridge is not the tallest cable-stayed bridge in the world: it is 403m above the ground, but the 2016 Duge Bridge is 565m above the ground. Checking our own List of highest bridges would have been sufficient... The Yachi River Bridge as well is higher and of the same type. I have pulled the hook, the nom will need to be reopened. Fram (talk) 07:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for checking. You could simply have changed the hook to "Baluarte Bridge, then the world's tallest cable-stayed bridge", no? Or to just "Baluarte Bridge". Readers who remember the DYK of that bridge (like me) will remember that it was the tallest then without adding it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:50, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I will not change hooks to something I haven't checked, nor to a mention of a bridge without any indication of why that one is mentioned. Hook is factually wrong => take it back to prep and find a correct one instead. No rushed changes to get it into the queue at all costs. Fram (talk) 08:08, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I changed the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm dearly sorry for that. Yeah, it makes sense that China's infrastructure development is moving even faster than Mexico's. Raymie (tc) 16:30, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Sigh ... I guess it's too much to hope for that any admin who would yank a hook from the top queue within hours of it being on the main page, would move another hook up to fill the gap. A simple courtesy. I moved Sagunto Castle up from prep 5 to fill the top slot. And, yes, I checked the source to make sure the hook is verified. No moaning, please, no whining, no complaining about the imperfections of other people. It's done. @Raymie, Gerda Arendt, and Yoninah: your hook can be re-added to some prep. Sorry it went down this way. — Maile (talk) 20:20, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Where can I find the corrected hook? Prep 5 is short one hook because Sagunto Castle was moved up, I think it makes sense if the corrected hook go there. HaEr48 (talk) 04:48, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I re-posted the template on the Approved page. The new ALT is waiting for approval from an uninvolved editor. Yoninah (talk) 09:19, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
@Yoninah and Raymie: Mexican Federal Highway 40D nomination was in limbo, at neither the Approved page nor the one waiting for approval. I just added it to the Approved page. Let's hope it stays there this time. — Maile (talk) 00:49, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
@Yoninah and Raymie: Well ... Wugbot just removed it and sent it into limbo again. Apparently, Wugbot sees this nomination as "closed" and thinks it doesn't belong anywhere. Looking at the template, Yoninah, whoever reopened it should have done a "revert" on the close, instead of however somebody did it. I looked at it in the edit screen, and it had all the coding for the closing on it, so that's why Wugbot keeps deleting it. I pasted over that with what was there immediately before you promoted it. Hopefully, it will now stay on the Approved page. — Maile (talk) 01:19, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Why would you want to have an unapproved hook on the Approved page? This is making things more confusing, not less. Fram (talk) 07:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Dubious hook in Queue6

Queue6, the next queue to hit the main page (and which lacks a picture hook at the moment), has the following second hook:

Template:Did you know nominations/Mohammed Mohiedin Anis @Edwardx, HaEr48, and Yoninah:

The hook strongly suggests that he had a 30-car collection when he left his home because of the battle, and only 13 remained on his return. The article though makes it clear that when he left, he had at most 24 cars left. Fram (talk) 12:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I noticed that too when reviewing, but I let it pass because it isn't false. It is true that 13 of his 30 cars (which he once had) remained after the Battle, and the hook didn't claim that all 17 got destroyed during the battle. I thought DYK hooks had license to do these things, and as you said, once someone clicks the hook the article clears this up. HaEr48 (talk) 15:34, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I also did the math, and felt the hook was less clunky than adding up all the cars that were stolen and impounded as well as being shelled. If you wish, we could go for a different hook:
ALT1: ... that Abu Omar, a vintage car collector in Aleppo, believes that "no car collection is complete without at least one Cadillac"? Yoninah (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Or what about:
ALT2: * ... that Abu Omar returned home after the Battle of Aleppo to find that only 13 of his dozens of vintage cars remained? (24 is "dozens") Yoninah (talk) 23:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The Cadillac hook is way too cliche :) Since you and I re-confirmed that we're ok with the original hook, I think let's just let it be. HaEr48 (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 1 - Tears on the Dancefloor

@Yoninah, Mifter, and Calvin999: "... that Steps' fifth studio album, Tears on the Dancefloor, is their first album in 17 years to consist solely of original material?"

  • As the lede paragraph points out, the album "also features a cover version of "Story of a Heart" by Björn Ulvaeus and Benny Andersson of ABBA." (it was the title track from the 2009 Benny Andersson Band album). So the Steps album isn't solely original material, is it?
  • Incidentally, even if it was, it wouldn't be the first album of original material for 17 years, either, because their 2000 album included a cover of Kylie's "Better the Devil You Know". In fact, it appears that they've never released an album of original material, but this is all secondary to the problem with the hook. Black Kite (talk) 19:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Hmm. I did my due diligence before promoting and noted the first inline cite: Speaking about the group's big comeback with their first album completely filled with original material in nearly 17 years... Yoninah (talk) 21:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, I saw that - when the source is wrong as well it's easy for these things to slip through. I presume we've either got to pull this or find an alternative hook. Black Kite (talk) 21:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It means that their last album, Light Up the World, was made up of mostly covers, and that the last time they released an album of new material was 2000 with Buzz. Tears on the Dancefloor is, bar one song, composed of new material written especially for the album. It's irrelevant that there is one cover song, lots of albums have one cover song. The source isn't wrong. You're just interpreting it wrongly.  — Calvin999 21:54, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
You're saying that it was "completely filled" with original stuff, but that Story of a Heart just meant it started to overflow a bit? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Huh? If there's a cover version there, you can't say that the album is "solely original material". The source is simply wrong. "Mostly" would have been fine. Black Kite (talk) 22:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
We could say:
ALT1: ... that Steps' fifth studio album, Tears on the Dancefloor, is their first album in 17 years to consist mostly of original material? Yoninah (talk) 21:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess so.  — Calvin999 22:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Making the change so this doesn't get pulled :( Yoninah (talk) 22:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Just a thought - why not look at something more interesting - how about ALT2: ... that the first two songs recorded for Steps' fifth studio album, Tears on the Dancefloor, were omitted due to not sounding enough like Steps? Black Kite (talk) 22:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
That isn't interesting and happens all the time with albums, songs being scrapped and starting over. I wanted to this hook to appear tomorrow because that's the day the album is released.  — Calvin999 08:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
(The article is in pretty good shape, with lots of references. But I was wondering, should it have a Personnel section? Most album articles have one. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC))
The hook as it stands isn't great anyway, because it merely says that a band has released its first album of mostly original material for 17 years, but it's only released one album in that intervening 17 years anyway - and it just sounds a bit like something a PR agent would say. Still, if consensus is that we go with that, I suppose it'll have to do. Black Kite (talk) 10:38, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Altenberger Dom

Altenberger Dom (now in prep 1) was nominated with image, and (while I typically just swallow when a proposed image is not taken) in this case I find it almost essential. Would you even know that the term means a church? More precisely a Gothic style church, more precisely a Cistercian one? All this people who know would see in the image. The 19th century hook is not even that interesting if we don't see that it talks about a much older building. We can't translate it - see talk - because it's not a Cathedral, and we'd get the fury of watchers if we said it was. So I see two alternatives: run it with image, or add "Altenberger Dom, a former Cistercian abbey church". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:52, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I took a look, and in all honesty I find Gerda's picture far more aesthetically pleasing than the image in prep at the moment. Pinging @HaEr48: as I'm guessing they had some reason for the swap. Vanamonde (talk) 11:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I moved the hook into the image slot in Prep 3. Yoninah (talk) 13:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers

The previous list was archived very early today, so here is an updated list of the 35 non-current nominations (those through April 12). Right now we have a total of 149 nominations, of which 46 have been approved. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the one from February that still needs a reviewer's attention.

Over one month old:

Other old nominations:

Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 18:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Rules

Do we have specific mechanisms in place to verify:

"Articles that have featured (bold link) previously on DYK, or in a blurb on the main page's In the news, or On this day sections are ineligible."

Some such as Air India have featured more than once. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Any main page appearance is listed on the article's talk page. In this case, the last main page appearance was 7 months after it was on the main page for DYK. But the first time was almost 4 years before it was submitted to DYK, and that should have been caught. If you are asking if there is a bot or anything automated to catch this in a review, I don't think so. It's up to the reviewers and promoters to check. — Maile (talk) 19:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
The problem is the wealth of intricate DYK rules that a reviewer and a promoter (and a promoting admin) really should be checking. It's too much for most, so this kind of thing creeps through. But now it's been seen, it should be pulled and rejected, otherwise I see no purpose in that rule. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:42, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I just checked what I think this inquiry is all about. Air India is a non-bolded link in DYK 2017 electronics ban. I don't think anything applies if a previous DYK just happens to be a non-bold link in a subsequent DYK. — Maile (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Add (yet) another rule that says "auxiliary links that have been featured in such a manner are acceptable". The Rambling Man (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Can you just imagine if DYK disallowed any non-bolded link that had previously been on the main page? Including FA, FL, OTD, ITN and DYK. That would exclude linking hundreds (thousands?) of famous people, landmarks, geography, structures, historical events, artwork, flora and fauna. — Maile (talk) 20:13, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes I can imagine that, definitely. It equates to the paradigm where nothing is linked beyond the target article. That's not very hard to comprehend at all. The real challenge would be working out which links had been targeted on the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Maile66, I think the issue is that Air India appeared in the On this Day section in October 2012 and so was DYK-ineligible when it appeared in March 2016. I thought DYKcheck looked for previous ITN appearances, but I had not noticed the rule covered bolded links at OTD too. The non-bolded link in the hook from Template:Did you know nominations/2017 electronics ban is non-problematic, IMO. EdChem (talk) 13:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
DYKcheck does indeed look for previous ITN and OTD appearances by checking the article's talk page; it should certainly have found the OTD template there had it been used. Unfortunately, a good many reviewers do not use DYKcheck, and clearly they don't necessarily know they should check the talk page for prior main-page appearances. I suppose it's inevitable that the occasional duplicate is going to slip through. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
BlueMoonset, FYI, I just ran DYKcheck on the Air India article and it noted the prior DYK but not the prior OTD appearances. So, I tried DYKcheck on Battle of Clontarf, which has been in OTD numerous times and was not warned of the OTD appearances. Are you sure DYKcheck looks for OTD blurb appearances? EdChem (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
EdChem, I thought DYKcheck did, but I could be mistaken. Pinging Shubinator, to see whether OTD is included in DYKcheck's examination, and if not, how difficult it would be to add. (I'm not entirely sure it bothers to do any additional check for ITN once a prior DYK is discovered, but that wouldn't affect Battle of Clontarf.) BlueMoonset (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
DYKcheck looks for previous appearances on DYK or ITN, but not OTD. Certainly looks possible to add OTD, I'll put it on my mental backlog. Shubinator (talk) 01:10, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Christ the Lord Is Risen Again

What are the rules on similar and overlapping topics, such as Christ the Lord Is Risen Again! and Christ ist erstanden? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.146 (talkcontribs) 21:31, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

There are no rules on "similar and overlapping topics" at this time. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I looked at it, and it may not even be overlapping: Mr. Weisse wrote a hymn (no article) "Christus ist erstanden", derived from the much older "Christ ist erstanden", Winkworth translated "Christus ist erstanden", described in the "Christ ist erstanden" article as "paraphrased". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:03, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Put it this way, the new article on the old German hymn (currently in the queue) is quite similar in some respects to an old article (DYK in 2015) on the newer English version of a German hymn - perhaps the old German hymn, but possibly a more recent German version of the old German hymn. But it is a free translation in any event. All three appear to be based on a very old hymn in Latin. Glad we got that straightened out. He is risen indeed. Alleluia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.146 (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

That English hymn ran on Easter 2 years ago! What's the point in bringing it up now? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I suppose the point is that it's similar to the article in question, I think that's clear from the discussion thread. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Corollary

I think given the OP question, there's a statement of fact that possibly needs to be reinforced at the rules, and it may be that it's there already, and that it just needs cementing, but it's something like:

Articles that have featured (bold link) previously on DYK, or in a blurb on the main page's In the news, or On this day sections are ineligible."

could become:

Articles that have not been previously bold-linked to on the main page, are eligible."
Articles that have been previously bold-linked to on the main page, are ineligible."

The Rambling Man (talk) 22:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

There is an issue with this which we should clarify. Recent deaths in the ITN section are non-bolded and DYK-eligible, but OTD birth and death anniversaries are bolded... does that make them ineligible? I would have thought OTD blurb bold links would be excluded, but I don't see why anniversaries are given recent deaths are not? EdChem (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The OTD bolded birth and death anniversaries are a recent innovation, and the DYK rules have not yet been adjusted to accommodate them. Shall we agree that, as merely names and dates, they should not count as a prior appearance for DYK purposes? (It helps that their appearance in the birth/death section does not result in a post to the article's talk page, so DYKcheck will not think that such an appearance has been made.) I think whatever formulation we use should be more specific, and specify DYK at least, and probably all three sections involved. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps:
"Articles that have been previously featured (bold link) at DYK, or in a blurb in the main page sections In the news or On this day, are ineligible."
By specifying blurbs, both the recent deaths at ITN and the recently-bolded birth / death anniversaries at OTD are excluded. Thoughts? EdChem (talk) 14:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 4 - most electronics

... that Air India saw its bookings to America double after the United States banned most electronics from the passenger cabin for flights departing certain Middle Eastern airports?

The ban on certain electronics affects items larger than mobile phones, so it's odd to say "most electronics" as "most electronics" on flight would be ... mobile phones. Plus the target article is badly named and an orphan. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

The article concerned is 2017 electronics ban. I have deorphaned it and reworded the hook to
  • ... that Air India saw its bookings to America double after the US banned electronic equipment larger than a mobile phone from the passenger cabin for flights departing certain Middle Eastern airports? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 4 - camerawork

... that the camerawork of Swedish film The King of Ping Pong was compared to that of Roy Andersson?

I read this and thought, "so what"? Sadly, although Andersson may be an acclaimed Swedish director, he's not commonly known, this hook will be lost on a lot of people. Grand Jury prize (in its category) at Sundance might be of much broader interest. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:02, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the current hook is sufficient. Also, I removed the lead too short tag on the article. The article is short per the type of coverage it received so there really isn't a need for a long lead. SL93 (talk) 20:44, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I disagree on both counts, and since you're the main contributor, I suggest you let others discuss this. I'm not asking for a "long lead", just one that, per WP:LEAD, "... serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important contents ..." i.e. not one which is just a single statement of fact about this individual. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I can discuss it if I want to. On the contrary, as the main contributor of both the article and the hook, I have the right to discuss it. I can't expand the lead if you don't give me more of an idea of what you want. SL93 (talk) 21:16, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I thought that was evident from the instructions in the {{lead too short}} template, i.e. cover all major points in the lead, such as actors, awards, criticism etc. When I said others should be allowed to discuss this, I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't, just that others should be free to wade in. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Um, I never said people couldn't. SL93 (talk) 21:42, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, me neither. Anyway, hopefully you have enough information now to work out how to fix this up, the hook is inconsequential and the lead is inadequate. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
The lead has been expanded and the tag removed. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:20, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Bravo, it doesn't address the "hook" issue. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Northamerica1000 as the reviewer. SL93 (talk) 13:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I think TRM has a valid point, the hookiness of the hook depends on know who Andersson was. There is an easy fix, however... add something to the article (with citation) that establishes Andersson as an acclaimed Swedish Director or multi-award winning or whatever... then use that descriptor to change the hook to something like "... that the camerawork in the Swedish film The King of Ping Pong was compared to that of acclaimed Director Roy Andersson?" Failing that sort of change, TRM's idea of using the Sundance Grand Jury prize is worth considering. Also, SL93, removing a tag about a lead that is too short without expanding the lead and when (at a single sentence) it is manifestly not an adequate summary of the article is not good editing. The problem has been addressed now, so there is no longer an issue, but it is worth you recognising that your actions here were less than ideal. EdChem (talk) 14:00, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I reacted that way because I think that tagging a DYK article without notifying the nominator is a bad move. Not only can tagged articles not be put on the main page, but what if no one notices the tag before the queue is promoted - like recently with one of The Rambling Man's citation needed tags. SL93 (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
SL93, any article I nominate at DYK is included on my watchlist. I check changes made to it. TRM has added cn tags and noted other issues in my articles, and I usually respond by addressing the issue, even if I am unconvinced it is needed. Only if I think it is wrong for some significant reason do I dispute it. TRM's manner can be blunt (or worse at times), but he is usually right – as he was in this case – and addressing the issues he notes usually leads to better encyclopaedic content. DYK is meant to bring attention to articles and that means improvements being made as well as deficiencies being noted, both prior to and during its main-page appearance. Reverting valid taggings is not helpful, and it does not matter who places the tag if it is valid. Please, try to look at tags and ask yourself if they point to an issue that should be addressed and put aside who placed them. EdChem (talk) 14:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
To be honest, you're lucky that an editor who kind of knows the ropes is reviewing these things post-promotion. At least I have kind-of clue as to what constitutes reliable sourcing, suitable leads, BLP infringements etc. That way the chances of enduring the embarrassment of posting such poor articles to the main page is substantially reduced. SL93, you claim that "Not only can tagged articles not be put on the main page...", can you point to that directive as others have been questioning the reason behind posting such tagged articles on the main page. My bluntness (EdChem) can sometimes be summed up by the fact that I have very little time to work on Wikipedia, and I'm trying to keep the main page free of junk, so if I don't jump through all the hoops expected by some here at this particular project (I review ITN, OTD, TFL... too) then sorry about that, but as Fram would agree, it's not up to someone who's making a complaint against an error to follow some kind of arcane procedure to ensure the "nominator" and the "promoter" knows, and all that other project-related bureaucracy. That's a problem for each project to cope with. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
We will clearly have to disagree about when to notify or not to notify editors. SL93 (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Well as I said, you're lucky in this case that I notify people when these erroneous issues are in prep or queue. If they're at ERRORS, then DYK has fouled up two or three times. There's no reason to go looking for the creator, why would anyone do that? This is an encyclopedia for our readers not our editors, and it would serve us all well to remember that from time to time. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:17, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
My view is if you go to the article creator, who can likely fix the problem, then the creator can fix it and our readers will not have to deal with it. SL93 (talk) 01:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Noted. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:58, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Prep 4 will soon be put into a queue and I think this hook should be dealt with already. I agree with TRM's alt proposal as being much more interesting to a broad audience, and suggest substituting it for the hook:

ALT1: ... that the Swedish film The King of Ping Pong won the Grand Jury Prize for world cinema at the 2008 Sundance Film Festival? Yoninah (talk) 13:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Pinging @SL93:. Yoninah (talk) 18:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Fine. SL93 (talk) 18:32, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I said it was fine. Someone might want to change it before its loaded into a queue. SL93 (talk) 02:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done Yoninah (talk) 07:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 2 - linguistic order

... that the linguistic research of Elena Georgieva showed that Bulgarian word order may change based on the emphasis a speaker wants to convey?

Isn't this true of most languages? Word order changes to emphasise different things all the time: "I love that dog", "that's the dog I love", etc etc etc. Is this special somehow? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Pinging SusunW, SL93, Cwmhiraeth, HaEr48. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
What happens in other languages isn't the subject of Georgieva's work. We don't determine whether her work was special, sources do, and specifically, one of them states: "The impact of her work on the field of Bulgarian syntax was considerable… Slovored was and is a high-water mark in the field for a number of reasons…it was the first work on Bulgarian syntax to view Bulgarian sentential word order as the culminating result of a number of different factors." Dyer p 14 "Georgieva’s contention is that Bulgarian sentential word order has multiple faces…and of the creation of an emphatic or stylistic atmosphere in language communication…” Dyer p 15. SusunW (talk) 21:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the point I'm trying to emphasise is that this isn't unique, or even interesting. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
@The Rambling Man:: Please check Word order, the example examples you cite aren't changing word order. They're all still SVO. That (S) - is (V) - the dog I love (O). Saying "The dog love I" to mean "I love the dog" would be OVS, but English doesn't allow this. In English sometimes there are sentences with non-SVO order, e.g. "I thee wed", but it's not normal. A language having variable word order is certainly not unique, but given that this is the English Wikipedia and English has generally strict word order, I think this is an interesting fact for English speakers. HaEr48 (talk) 22:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Fine, but it means the hook is somewhat inaccessible to most of our readers. Please revise it to make it "interesting to a broad audience" per the guidelines. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess where we differ here is that you are assuming since you find it uninteresting that others will agree. Your opinion, and I am not trying to be disrespectful, doesn't necessarily represent that of a broad audience either. And thank you HaEr48 you said pretty much what I was writing when we had our edit conflict. SusunW (talk) 22:18, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Sure, I guess pageviews will let us know. This is not interesting to a broad audience by any means, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful either, but I wondered if there was something more hooky to publish. You're sticking to your guns, fair play, let's see how it plays out. My guess is sub-2k hits. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:21, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Maybe The Rambling Man should write an essay about his personal opinions of what is hooky and we could all go by his almighty word... I can be pretty blunt to. SL93 (talk) 01:36, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Ouch. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:59, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to Topic-prominent language might help? It is fairly unusual in European languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.146 (talk) 07:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Per above, perhaps a re-word here to ensure a few more hits than my normal talkpage daily visitors? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:39, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 2 - "mechanical issues"

... that all four Andretti Autosport entries at the 2017 Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach retired from the race due to mechanical issues?

Well three of those four are listed as "Off Course" in the results. Sato, for instance, is quoted as "suddenly slowed on course and brought his car to a halt on an access lane" and nothing else, nothing about a "mechanical issue", he could have had an epiphany and decided to pull over. Likewise, "Hunter-Reay suddenly slowed and stopped on course" but no indication why, he went "Off Course" per the results but stopped "on course" per the article. What a muddle! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:23, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Pinging Bcschneider53, Orygun, Cwmhiraeth. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, "off course" is a peculiar way of saying that they stopped at some point during the race. The source [2] does however say "With an assortment of engine failures – of the mechanical or electrical variety – halting their collective charge this year, the entire squad finished in perfect order from P17-P20", so the hook is sourced. Black Kite (talk) 21:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Okay, fair enough. I looked past that at the rest of the article which gave different indicators, as noted. Meh. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Greetings from Merida, Mexico! I'm traveling all day today, currently waiting to board a flight to Mexico City before returning to the States. It appears this issue has been resolved, but is there anything else you need me to do? Or is the hook ready to go? Thanks, --Bcschneider53 (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Some DYK suggestions

Found via User:AlexNewArtBot/ProWrestlingSearchResult:

  • ... that Naohiro Hoshikawa was forced to retire after suffering a career-ending brain injury?

50.205.178.174 (talk) 11:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I have suggested to the IP editor that if she or he made an account, he or she could make nominations.  :) EdChem (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Alternately he/she may have more luck taking the suggestions to the WP:Pro Wrestling project who has more of a vested interest in getting pro wrestling related DYKs on the front page.  MPJ-DK  12:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the IP posting to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling is a good idea, MPJ-DK. EdChem (talk) 12:57, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I was following the instructions on WP:DYK ("if you are not a registered user, please leave a message at the bottom of the DYK project talk page with the details of the article you would like to nominate and the hook you would like to propose"). Thanks for the offer but I'm not really interested in joining Wikipedia. I'm just making a reader's suggestion. 50.205.178.174 (talk) 13:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. I am sure, we can feature at least 1 of these on the main page. --Skr15081997 (talk) 13:50, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Good point, IP. I have acted on your suggestion and created Template:Did you know nominations/King Kaluha. EdChem (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Continuous errors in DYK articles' coordinates.

I have to continuously correct the coordinates in DYK articles, such as this one today. Is there any way that a check of the coordinates be added to the Reviewing guide? Abductive (reasoning) 21:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Personally I would have no idea how to even do that? Any suggestios for a good way to double check this?  MPJ-DK  22:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
    I do sometimes compare coordinates to Wikimapia and Google Earth to see if they make sense. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:14, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
    • I just realized you can click onthe coordinates and chose to see them through various sites, I chose the streetview of Google and boom righte there where it's supposed to be - that is awesome, and easy to do too.  MPJ-DK  22:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I've learned a lot of things by reading instruction pages on Wikipedia, but I've never found a page that explains how to do coordinates. Yoninah (talk) 13:53, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I think co-ordinates are a very minor part of articles and don't impact on DYK much. Often I find that if you put the invisible co-ordinates needed tag on an article, someone better versed in it is able to come in and correct it. But it doesn't affect anything in the article that is related to DYK. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:09, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
So in your mind, being off by a literal mile (as in my example diff) is no problem on the Front Page? Yep, you must be right, and I must be wrong. Abductive (reasoning) 16:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Abductive: Requiring this from each reviewer is asking too much, and can lead to edit wars . And it comes down to "Whose coordinates are correct?" My example on recent DYK Big Chief Restaurant:
  • Version One: 38.581111, -90.659722 from the coordinates listed at National Register of Historic Places listings in St. Louis County, Missouri. That took me to GeoHack. I used the decimal coordinates that show in the upper right hand corner of that page.
  • Version Two: 38.581040, -90.660459 Changed by an editor while it was on the main page Big Chief Restaurant. This is the second time in a few days someone changed the coordinates on a DYK of mine.
  • Version Three - 38.5824105,-90.6635067 Google maps for the street address and zip code as listed on the restaurant website
  • Version Four - 38.5802, -90.66063 Bing maps for the street address
So which of these 4 versions are correct? In fact, both Google and Bing give conflicting results within themselves depending on how detailed you input the address. I appreciate that you are diligent about coordinates. But I don't think we should make this a requirement on reviews. — Maile (talk) 14:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Well ... then it's Google, Bing and the National Park Service who are violating our MOS, and not ours to control. — Maile (talk) 17:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • No, their coordinates are often decimal conversions of dms coords. And they can be rounded. But this is not my main point. My example shows the coords were off by 1.6 kilometers. They need to be checked. Abductive (reasoning) 18:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Prep 5

@Prioryman: @Gerda Arendt:

Sigurd Slembe was a real person. Though he was illegitimate, is it encyclopedic to call him "a worthless bastard"? The phrasing also seems to indicate a value judgment. Yoninah (talk) 13:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I think it is acceptable to use "bastard" as we are using it in the correct context (Indeed when Flag of Guernsey ran, we called William The Conquerer a bastard in the hook for that is what he was. The question is; is the word "worthless" encyclopedic? Is it in the context of a quote or an accusation by the writer of the plays? Personally it should either be in quote marks or remove the word worthless but I see no legitimate reason why we should remove bastard from the hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
'Slembe' in context can mean multiple things, bastard, worthless, bad etc. The article in question Sigurd Slembe (trilogy) makes this clear - as far as the intention of the naming of the plays are concerned. 'Slembi' in old Norse means something else again. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, and the name has been translated multiple ways - "Sigurd the Worthless", "Sigurd the Bad", "Sigurd the Bastard" etc. Prioryman (talk) 17:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect, given the wordplay, this ought to be the "quirky" hook, just to avoid people making a fuss. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Good idea. I'm moving it to the quirky slot in the next set. Yoninah (talk) 07:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Missing infoboxes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missing infoboxes
This discussion is closed
A snowflake
A visual representation of the weather forecast pertaining to this topic
Chances of requirement being added Next to no chance
Utility of discussion continuing Next to no chance
Name of user closing discussion Bencherlite
Time of closing of discussion 20:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I have noted that many DyK articles are missing infoboxes. Is there a way that a check could be made prior to approving a DyK for an appropriate infobox? Perhaps a brief mention of this could be written into the instructions for the DyK writers or for the reviewers. Abductive (reasoning) 16:17, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Why? I mean I get the use of info boxes, but the lack of one does not seem like a hinderance for it being on the main page. Do we need yet another check point when there are enough issues making sure we hit all the current quality checks?  MPJ-DK  16:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Infobox's are not required on any article and many articles have editor consensus *not* to have one. As far as I am aware having an infobox is not a criteria for being a FA, GA etc either (but I could be wrong on that) so it would be beyond laughable for DYK to require one. (Its also considered bad form to include an infobox on an article where the primary creator has decided not to use one) Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Signpost 2013-10-02 Arbitration report on Infoboxes. They are an individual choice, not a requirement on any review process. — Maile (talk) 17:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • In addition to Maile's point, it's a fact that most articles here are relatively short, which often means that there is not enough detail of the sort that makes an infobox worthwhile. Vanamonde (talk) 17:25, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • That's the weirdest request I've heard of here in a long time, and especially from such an experience editor. NO INFOBOXES ARE REQUIRED. Close this discussion as soon as possible please, it will not generate anything other than heat. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A modest proposal

Should DYK nominations be moved from the template namespace to the Wikipedia namespace? KMF (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

The whole project needs an overhaul to make it more intuitive and easier to follow a nomination from proposal to main page. But sadly it's far from modest, and sadly there's no appetite to do it; the regulars understand how it works, and that's just fine for them, the newcomers are completely discouraged by the arcane machinations of DYK and that's why the project has so few genuinely new editors contributing, the majority are seasoned editors who know the ropes, and those who are gaining points for WikiCup. It doesn't serve Wikipedia well, in general. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree that it is too complicated. I have made three DYK noms, and only on my third (and current) one am I beginning to understand all the plethora of pages. What is really needed is a concrete proposal on how the process could be simplified. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I think the reason why they were put into the templates were because prior to this, stuffing them all onto one page cluttered it and made it hard to track nominations. Plus I can't recall if there was a nomination template at the time. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:01, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I doubt that newbies are put off by the plethora of templates because all they have to do is fill in the initial nomination template and then follow the progress of their nomination via their watchlist. I think they may have more difficulty with finding where to nominate in the first place (part way down the large page), and then in filling up a cluttered, off-putting and difficult to understand form. What did @PaleCloudedWhite: think of the nomination process? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:48, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Honestly, the template system is a rather elegant method of keeping track of the whole process. I remember doing my first DYK nomination: there were some tricky parts, but the nomination system itself was not one of them. The C of E is quite correct: our time would be well spent letting new article creators know that nominating here is a possibility. What we also need to do is overhaul our system of rules and regulations. Having a page of detailed rules is not an issue, because they are there precisely to address issues of detail that do not crop up often; but there is no reason to have more than one very basic and one detailed page of rules. Or even a single page. We have four, I think, at present. Vanamonde (talk) 10:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't think nominating is difficult, thanks to the templates. Perhaps we should tell users who find it difficult where to ask for help, such as somewhere on this page. I'd be willing to help with first nominations, - someone did the first for me, fondly remembered. - I suggest to keep nominations open until archived after appearing, and to hold all related discussions within, not hook questions here only, for more transparency. Here, we could just link to a list of problem noms, as BlueMoonset does for the old ones. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Blog and an internet forum as a reliable source

I'm having trouble with Template:Did you know nominations/MBT-80. The nominator is saying that a blog and an internet forum are considered reliable sources for the topic. Certain blogs can be reliable sources, but I don't see anything that would amount to the WordPress blog being a reliable source. I'm doubtful of the internet forum being a reliable source because it seems like anyone can register and even misinterpret the sources that they post. SL93 (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Under WP:SPS, the only way that blog posts can be considered notable is if they are written by "an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:15, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Queue 1 (due to go live in 7 hours) - copied from WP:ERRORS

  • "... that Pangeran Adipati Anom expected a fake engagement at the Battle of Gegodog, but instead his army suffered a decisive defeat?" - very confusing. "Pangeran Adipati Anom" is linked to Amangkurat II of Mataram, which does not mention "Pangeran Adipati Anom" at all, neither does it mention the Battle of Gegodog. Who is Pangeran Adipati Anom? What, if anything, is his or her relationship with Amangkurat II of Mataram? What has the Battle of Gegodog to do with either? DuncanHill (talk) 14:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • I agree - this is completely confusing. Not to mention that Amangkurat II of Mataram is mostly unsourced and shouldn't be linked from the Main Page. Can someone explain the hook here, because I suspect the only other option is to pull it. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • This is the present hook. Perhaps it could be changed to the ALT hook, but really, HaEr48 is the editor who understands this historical article about Java. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:11, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm honestly surprised that this hook causes confusion, as in the article Battle of Gegodog it is explicitly stated "then known as Pangeran Adipati Anom, future Amangkurat II". Thats why I passed the article. But if it does cause confusion, then we can de-link "Pangeran Adipati Anom" and go with ALT. Applodion (talk) 18:21, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Right. He was only Amangkurat II after being king, before that he was crown prince and known as Pangeran Adipati Anom (this is also a title and not his real name). This battle happened when he was crown prince. Kind of like in Battle of Vitoria, the British commander was referred to as the Marquess of Wellington and not the Duke - because he was not Duke yet. HaEr48 (talk) 18:59, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
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