Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)

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Editing box inserting bogus hard linebreaks (MacOS X, Chrome, about a month now, only on this site)

For the last month or so I've been experiencing a problem (in Chrome, on MacOS X), where if I enter a space character at the end of a displayed "line" (i.e. right before a soft-wrap) in the editing window, a hard linebreak ends up being inserted when I save, often resulting in crap like this:

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna

aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat.

where the second line, which should not be a real line at all, is treated as <pre>...</pre> text. What's happened is a hard line break was inserted after "magna", causing the "[space]aliqua" to start a new hardcoded line. This most often happens when the displayed "line" in the editing box soft-wraps at something not alphabetical, such as ]] or the like. Driving me nuts. Generally the only way to fix it is to save the broken version and go back in and re-edit it. I get hit by this around 1–5 times per day. Never happened before, in 12 years.

Any ideas what the issue is? Anyone else getting this?  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  06:47, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

I just now corrected this edit and was wondering how @such an experienced editor would make that mistake. --Pipetricker (talk) 07:26, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I've also run into it being done by other editors with increased frequency recently, though it's not all over the place.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  23:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Which editor are you using ? Do you have the Syntaxhighlight Beta enabled by chance ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 10:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
@TheDJ: I do have "Wikitext syntax highlighting" turned on in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures. I also had "Syntax highlighter" turned on in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets; maybe this is causing cross-talk of some kind. I'm not running "wikEd" or "New wikitext mode".  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  23:53, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
It's happened to me too a couple of times but I've caught it in preview. I have the gadget, but not the beta. I'm using Win 10 & Opera. Cabayi (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Would youtwo please turn off the gadget, and then try to trigger this? Since you have the gadget in common, it'd be helpful if we could quickly rule that out, or know that the gadget needs an update. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
I've turned off the beta gadget. As a test I turned off the regular one, and left the beta one on, and did not actually get any syntax highlighting at all, so the beta one seems to have issues anyway. I've run with the regular one for ages (before noticing there was a beta replacement) without this issue, so I'll try this change first.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  19:52, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
It's still happening. So, I have no turned off the non-beta syntax highlighter. This is going to be really painful.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  00:15, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I've been getting this on the mobile site. It's incredibly frustrating. Hairy Dude (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @Whatamidoing (WMF): Update – I've run for a week or so without syntax highlighting (either version), as requested, and it's still happening, under the same conditions as initially reported. And additional one (or a variant, really) is that it often happens when double-spacing after a . (i.e., another case of a space after a non-alphanum character). I find that re-sizing the browser window can make it go away, and sometimes doing "Show preview" will as well.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  03:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Thank  you for the update. Which editing environment are you using? There are screenshots of each at mw:Editor if you're not absolutely certain. Hairy Dude and Cabayi: same question for you. A complete list of operating system/web browser/skin/editor would be the most useful (e.g., this comment is being added via macOS 10.12/Safari 11/Vector/2017 wikitext editor). Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
      @Whatamidoing (WMF): I'm using Extension:WikiEditor ("Enable enhanced editing toolbar" is enabled in Special:Preferences).  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  21:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
      @Whatamidoing (WMF): Chrome 61.0.3163.98 on Android 7.0 (Samsung Galaxy S6), using the mobile editor. Beta features are off. Hairy Dude (talk) 01:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Plain old wrapping is broken

Something is broken.

I am working right now in the wikitext editor, in Chome on a mac, with the browser window at about six inches wide. If I now add a link with a window that is about a foot wide. If I now now add something something long

Talk:Water_fluoridation#NPOV_issues_in_controversy_section and then keep typing, and then save, I get what you see here. Jytdog (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
That is messed up, and never used to happen. There is some kind of bug and this is wasting my time. Jytdog (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jytdog: The formatting observed above occurs because there's a carriage return after the word "long" and the next line starts with a space. If you remove the space and/or the carriage return, it formats normally. DH85868993 (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I am not a moron and there is no carriage break. Something changed in wikitext editor in the last month or so. What is there, is two spaces. This happens with just one space as well, just before some sort of bracketed text like this. I end up having to change the width of the browser window to move the juxtaposition of the long thing with what is just before it, to be in the middle of the window instead of at the end, and then I can resolve it. But something broke in the wikitext editor to make this something i now have to stop and juggle to fix instead of just working like it should. And yes i fucking know how to fix it. The problem is that it happens at all. The wikitext editor is inserting some kind of carriage break itself. I noticed there have been other problems with wrapping on this page. I have not seen this described here. Jytdog (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
actually this is being discussed above at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Editing_box_inserting_bogus_hard_linebreaks_.28MacOS_X.2C_Chrome.2C_about_a_month_now.2C_only_on_this_site.29 Jytdog (talk) 21:36, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I am experiencing this as well and had opened a thread below about this, here. I am using chrome on a mac and this error is completely about wrapping and is dependent on the width of the browser window. I have no gadgets enabled, just the plain wikitext editors. Jytdog (talk) 21:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
btw, what you see there is an example of this. I had first saved the comment above in this diff, and i edited it a bit further in this diff, and when I saved that, you can see that my signature didn't wrap correctly and a hard stop was added by the wikitext editor. this never used to happen. Jytdog (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I've reported a ticket about this now, but i'm still not entirely sure what combination of settings is triggering this, so if someone could clarify that, then maybe someone can fix it. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 22:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
What exactly do you want to know? Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
btw i just logged in with firebox (most recent version for mac) and i cannot make this bug replicate this in firebox. Jytdog (talk) 03:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • This is still happening. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

New source edit screen

Visual editor but on "edit source" kind of thing
That's yer problem right there

WTF is going on? Impossible to post a subst:GAN notice without a load of ******* nowiki ****?! — fortunavelut luna 14:17, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank fuck for the censoring! Anywho, could you give us a screenshot? Might be helpful FIM, though I'm not really sure what's going on.. -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 14:20, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
You must see it surely- it's doing it right now on this page, where the edit screen isn't a window it's a page. I'm crap about the lingo. Yeah soz about the ****, was just going slightly potty back there  :) It loads ike V?E but displays mark-up rather than WYSIWYG. Here's a cap ------>
Do you have "New wikitext mode" enabled in your beta settings? Nihlus 14:37, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
This is gorgeous this is  :D If I have... then who enabled it?! "Grrrr" Hold on I'll have a boucherie — fortunavelut luna 14:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
You could have if you have "Automatically enable all new beta features" selected as well. Nihlus 14:41, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
LOL thanks Nihlus- I take it the nicely ready-ticked box "Automatically enable all new beta features" is the culprit!?! -or should I say the ******* culprit?! ;) — fortunavelut luna 14:43, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Nilhus, got it just as you posted thanks for that. Now: UNCHECK :D and thanks too, fucking Time :p — fortunavelut luna 14:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, that'll do it that will -- There'sNoTime (to explain) 14:47, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Tech_News:_2017-40: "If you have turned on "Automatically enable all new beta features" you will now get the 2017 wikitext editor". There was a bug fix which meant you are getting the Beta Feature, like you indicated in your preferences. It is possible to disable it of course; thanks for considering "playing" with it a bit and leaving some feedback before opting out. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Elitre (WMF), in general I don't mind experimenting (got me into a lot of trouble when I was young!), but al I was trying to do was paste '{{subst:GAN|subtopic=Royalty, nobility, and heraldry}}' onto a talk, but instead got <code><nowiki>{{subst:GAN|subtopic=Royalty, nobility, and heraldry}}</nowiki>- see, loads of nowiki /code etc wrapped around it. It worked on the fifth attempt  :p — fortunavelut luna 15:02, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Just for general information: The WMF decided that they could reduce the number of editors by building a "wikitext mode" inside of Visual Editor, and getting us to eventually switch into it. It has performance problems and faulty previews because it's build inside of VE. Performance is severely affected by the side of the article, and seems to vary for different people. The last time I tried previewing United States it took over 60 seconds. There was a Village Pump consensus to submit the performance and preview issues as deployment-blockers. The WMF has given no indication that performance can be improved to be comparable to the current editor, and they appear unwilling to provide genuine previews. Instead they want to eventually switch over article views to use the VE-rendering engine. That would theoretically fix most or all of the "preview flaws" of trying to use VE-itself as a preview for wikitext editing. Alsee (talk) 20:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Wow. That's nuts. I really really really hope they don't go ahead with it — the normal editor's worked well for fifteen years, and if it's not broke, don't fix it. Nyttend (talk) 23:29, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Ditto. A change like this probably would "reduce the number of editors", but probably not in the way that the WMF intended. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:29, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Ha!, I also read it that way at first, as a sarcastic dig at the WMF by Alsee ... --Pipetricker (talk) 09:31, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry about this confusion, everyone.
If you're interested in editing tools, then please see mw:Editor for a long list of editing environments. Almost all of the tools currently on the list are supported by the Foundation. The Foundation plans to continue support indefinitely for almost all of these editing environments, including the 2003 (non-Javascript-requiring) wikitext editor and the 2010 wikitext editor (Nyttend, that's probably the one that you describe as "the normal editor", but you can check the screenshots at mw:Editor to be sure). There is a plan to drop Foundation support for exactly one (1) of those tools (and a volunteer is looking at converting it to a user script, in which case, it won't even go away – it'll just be someone else's problem when it breaks).
If you are interested in questions of performance, then you will be interested in the new quarterly goals for the Contributors' teams. If you are interested in how previews are constructed (and you aren't Jonesey95, who already knows about all of this  ;-), then you may want to read about the two-systems problem and the removal of Tidy.
I happen to know about the plans for editing support, but in general, if you want to know the actual plans for any particular product, then please ask me. If I don't know, I'll try to find out for you. You can also ask any dev working on the product that interests you. Having a bunch of rumors floating around is not going to help anything. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"This editor is planned to be removed in MediaWiki 1.30" doesn't sound like it's being supported indefinitely. Nyttend (talk) 01:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, according to Special:Version, Wikipedia already uses version 1.31. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
MW 1.31 started recently. The removal has been delayed because of two bugs (so far; one was recently resolved, and the other is still open).
Nyttend, as I said above "There is a plan to drop Foundation support for exactly one (1) of those tools". The one editing environment that the Foundation will no longer support is the 2006 wikitext editor (=not 2003 or 2010, both of which will be supported for a long time to come). See phab:T30856 if you want to follow that work. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

"14,882 users are trying this feature."

In "preferences - Beta features", each feature gets a "X users are trying this feature." statement. Are this users on enwiki or global? Fram (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

It's related to the wiki you're looking at. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
That's what I thought someone said awhile ago as well. I then already thought that the numbers given were suspiciously high. For the "Content translation tool", it says "58,320 users are trying this feature.", even though the tool is "restricted to editors that are extended-confirmed.", of which there are at the moment only 36774... Fram (talk) 14:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It wasn't always limited to extended-confirmed and all users still see the option in preferences and can enable it there even if it doesn't currently work in their account. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
In addition to this, the number is only about those who opted-in deliberately: doesn't count those who chose "Automatically enable...". Elitre (WMF) (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
While I can buy Pimehunter's explanation, it seems extremely unlikely that more than 50,000 editors on enwiki, who don't have 'enable all beta features', have actually specifically enabled this feature. Fram (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not. First, because it's been a tool in active development for a few years now, that's globally much appreciated and will soon celebrate the creation of article #250k. Also, the English Wikipedia is quite often the source of translations, so one needs to have Content Translation enabled here to start a translation into their own language. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 16:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
To clarify: That number reports all accounts that are currently opted in at this (local) wiki, according to the prefs table. So if someone creates an account, plays around with the prefs, and forgets the password, then that account will always be counted as "trying this feature". But if you actually do try the feature, but without ticking the individual button, then your account will not be counted as "trying this feature". It is, at best, an estimate. Given that >99% of accounts are not actively editing, the difference between "actually using" and "ticked the button at some point in the past" can be quite substantial. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


Trying to do a get_all_pages_in_category call but it is only returning 500 entries. Any ideas how to set it up to something more reasonable? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:17, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: If it suits what you're doing you could try using PetScan. Jc86035 (talk) 08:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. That might work. One disturbing thing: Petscan says that Category:FA-Class military history articles has 1,007 members, but the category says that it has only 1,002. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:52, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Bug. It erroneously reported subcategories. Still three erroneous elements. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Damn! It doesn't work. It just gives me back a lot of HTML. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:21, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I can't help for the general case but I have a script I can run to get the pages in a category. It found 1005 pages, see my sandbox (permalink). I think WP:AWB also has a mechanism to make a list of pages from a category. The numbers shown such as "out of approximately 1,002 total" at the category page are estimates. I think the only way to know for sure is to generate a list and even that is subject to peculiarities because, for example, one bad edit to a template or module can create an error that adds (or removes) hundreds of pages to a category, and even if the bad edit is immediately reverted the system may take weeks to clean itself because that is done at a low priority. Johnuniq (talk) 22:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I got the same result; the category page says 1,002, while PetScan says 1,005. I will run a script over the output and check them all. I really prefer an API I can call from a script; I don't going through tools like PetScan. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:59, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
mw:API:Query#Continuing_queriesTheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:00, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
That might work. I'll give it a try. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:04, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Category page counts on category pages themselves are notoriously inaccurate and have been for a long time. That's why we added "out of approximately" before the count. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:38, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

That's not so good. Face-sad.svg Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:04, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
The situation is that if there's a bug where some page addition/removal doesn't update the count or if the job to update things somehow gets lost, there's no way to know that the count has become inaccurate and needs updating. It'll get updated if the stored count goes negative (since that's obviously wrong), or if the total number of pages is less than 200 (i.e. no paging on the Category page), or if a slow maintenance script is run on the server to recalculate all the counts from scratch. Anomie 17:58, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe that this is tracked as T18036, but I am wrong nearly every day. This could be one of those days. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Images are not showing up on Wikipedia

I have a big problem going on with Wikipedia. I can't locate around images easily on Wikipedia and when I click on an image, it is throw up an error message. This only happening on Wikipedia and nowhere else. This is the error message that comes when opening File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg:

Page not found

/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Farewell_to_442402_Beckenham_Junction_to_London_Victoria_1Z43_approaching_Beckenham_Road_station_(32556548674).jpg We could not find the above page on our servers. Did you mean: /wiki/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Farewell_to_442402_Beckenham_Junction_to_London_Victoria_1Z43_approaching_Beckenham_Road_station_(32556548674).jpg Alternatively, you can visit the Main Page or read more information about this type of error. Pkbwcgs (talk) 08:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Do you have the media viewer option turned on? If so, you could try disabling it, in case that helps. The image shows up for me (including its large version). —PaleoNeonate – 08:51, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PaleoNeonate: How can I disable media viewer? Pkbwcgs (talk) 09:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Pkbwcgs: under preferences -> files there should be an "Enable media viewer" boolean option. —PaleoNeonate – 10:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PaleoNeonate: There is no files tab in my preferences so I still can't find it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Images work for me. "Enable Media Viewer" is at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. What is your browser and skin? Does it happen if you are logged out? Are you saying the error happens when you click on the link "File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg"? How about commons:File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg? Or does it only happen when you click on a displayed image like at User:Pkbwcgs/sandbox? Do you have the Firefox addon NoScript? It can cause problems with some file names with parentheses. Does File:Example.png work? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: File:Example.png doesn't work. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:23, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, File:Example.png and commons:File:Farewell to 442402 Beckenham Junction to London Victoria 1Z43 approaching Beckenham Road station (32556548674).jpg doesn't work after enabling Media viewer. In fact, a few hours ago some pictures worked but in the last two hours none of the pictures work before and after enabling Media viewer. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:26, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
And... I don't use Firefox, I use Google Chrome. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:27, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
And your skin, and logged out? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Logging out doesn't help the problem. The pictures still don't appear. Nor does clearing the cache. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:01, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Apparently, it is error 404 but I can't able to fix it. Pkbwcgs (talk) 11:08, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Can you try another browser and maybe Internet connection? Is the error message the only content on a file page? Does or work? PrimeHunter (talk) 11:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Both versions are not working. The error message comes after going to the image - there is an image link instead of the image. If I click on the image link, it leads to error 404 and the error message I put right at the top of this thread. If I am too vague, I will post a screenshot. Pkbwcgs (talk) 12:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Have you tried Ctrl+F5 in Chrome? If so, please post a screenshot. Nihlus 12:43, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
Does give the error? Are you in England as your user page says? I'm nearby in Denmark so our locations shouldn't make a difference. User-uploaded files are stored at Does work? PrimeHunter (talk) 13:02, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: @Nihlus: I don't know where can I upload a screenshot and only is working at the moment but the other link isn't. Pkbwcgs (talk) 13:31, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@Pkbwcgs: See WP:WPSHOT. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:06, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
I wondered whether your browser didn't go to for some reason so I manually replaced the domain in the correct url and got this: It's not supposed to find an image and it gives me the error message you quoted, but I can find no way to get there without manually modifying the address. What is the address in your browser after you click this link: My browser stays at that address and displays the image. The address with nothing after the domain redirects me to The manually made wrong address also gives me an error message like you quoted but again, I can find no way to get there by clicking normal interface links. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: It still quite a bad problem. As soon as I clear the history, the images will work for 5 to 10 minutes and after that, the images will suddenly stop working. This problem suddenly happened on Friday and I still didn't get a solution. Pkbwcgs (talk) 14:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
It's hard to help if you don't answer questions. If you click then is your browser still on that address when you see an error message saying "We could not find the above page on our servers"? Where does "Main Page" in the error message link to? PrimeHunter (talk) 15:12, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: The link you have given is working. However, the pictures are still not showing up. The main page in the error is linking to Wikimedia Common's main page. However, sometimes even opening Wikimedia commons is throwing up this error below:

Error 'Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem. Please try again in a few minutes.

See the error message at the bottom of this page for more information.'

By the way, the 'error message' in this error is error 404. Pkbwcgs (talk) 16:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Again, I am being held up with technical difficulties on Wikimedia Commons. Is there any maintenance work going on? Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Commons currently works for me but I have periodically seen such error messages for years. It's unrelated to the other problem. If the "Main Page" link goes to Commons then it sounds like you are at when you see the error message while you should have been at after you click an image to view the image directly and not just on a file page. But I cannot be sure because you still haven't answered what the address is. Maybe there is a problem with your browser. Do you have any browser extensions which may manipulate addresses? PrimeHunter (talk) 21:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: No luck - problem still is going on. The address that it is going to is Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Which of the problems? "We could not find the above page on our servers" and "Our servers are currently under maintenance or experiencing a technical problem" are completely different. And is only a domain. Please post a full address where you see the problem, e.g. which works for me. Copy-paste the address from your browser to be sure to get the precise address. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:04, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: We could not find the above page on our servers. is the error message. does not work for me. A few days back, it did. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Please look at the image on File:Wikimedia error 404.png. I hope this is the right images but I think this is the example screenshot of the error 404 message I am getting. Pkbwcgs (talk) 15:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
That's odd. Not only does it work for me but if I try a deliberately wrong name at like then I only get this:
404 Not Found
The resource could not be found.

File not found: /v1/AUTH_mw/wikipedia-commons-local-public.70/7/70/WrongExample.png
It's a different message and it has no link to Commons or anywhere else. Contructing a wrong link with the right directory per mw:Manual:$wgHashedUploadDirectory gives me the same result: Please confirm that your browser is still on the address when you see "We could not find the above page on our servers", and a "Main Page" link going to Wikimedia Commons. Do you know where to see which address you are on? Can you try another browser? File:Wikimedia error 404.png is only a partial match to the message you quoted in the first post, but the file is five years old and from another domain so that's not surprising. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Sorry for the delayed reply. I can confirm that the web address is definitely Most of the images are still not working. Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Also, after a quick test, apparently this issue I am facing at the moment is on Google Chrome and not Internet Explorer. However, I still prefer Google Chrome to Internet Explorer. Will this be enough to help me out on my issue? Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

A gadget for categorizing the items in a list or in a gallery

I have a list of images that I would like to add in a certain category. The list also exists in a form of a gallery. I noticed that the gadget Cat-a-lot can't categorize the items from a gallery - it only works for the images in a category or for those returned by a search. I can categorize those items in the list using AWB (if I get the bot flag) but is there any gadget capable to do that? Fructibus (talk) 00:42, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

This isn't easy. What makes this so difficult is that categories are still intermingled with the rest of the wikitext, and MediaWiki allows for a lot of flexibility in how categories are entered. To begin with, categories are usually entered like this:
However, this works just as well:
so the basic assumption that each category starts on its own line goes right out the window. To make things worse, both Categoría and Category are allowed on eswiki, but on enwiki, only Category is allowed. And as if that wasn't bad enough, categories do not have to be specified in the page at all. They can be transcluded. Via templates. There are plans to move things like categoies out of the wikitext, which would make writing scripts like these trivial. You can read about this at mw:Requests for comment/Multi-Content Revisions or at phab:T107595. Nirmos (talk) 14:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Nirmos: - I understand it's not easy, but in the same time, all those problems also exist for the images displayed in a category, and the gadget Cat-a-lot can handle them. I dont' see where is the difference between a gallery shown in a category and a gallery shown using the <gallery> tag, for the Cat-a-lot perspective. The gadget only gets a list of image links, in both cases. And sorry for the late reply - Fructibus (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Not receiving pings

Several people tried to ping me today, and nothing went through [1] [2] [3]. My settings don't have anyone muted, and the templates/signatures seem to have been placed correctly. Also checked to make sure that my preferences have notifications on for mentions. Anyone have any ideas why these aren't going through? TonyBallioni (talk) 01:07, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I also noticed that a few pings were lost for me as well (i.e. I never received the two notifications from Beetstra at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Torrent_socks). —PaleoNeonate – 01:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: Did you receive this ping? Also, do you know if those users have their settings set to tell them when they fail to ping someone? Adam9007 (talk) 01:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've just changed my settings so that it should tell me when I successfully ping someone. Testing: TonyBallioni. Update: Yes, ping was successfully sent. Adam9007 (talk) 01:21, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've also noticed several pings did not reach me too. Is this another system change? Incidentally, are all of the failed mentions from {{u}}? Alex ShihTalk 01:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Adam9007:, I did. Looking at those pings they used the {{u}} template, while you used the {{re}}. I do not know if @Megalibrarygirl: has her settings to notify if pings don't go through. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:25, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: I received your {{replyto}} ping, so maybe it's a problem with the {{u}} template? Adam9007 (talk) 01:28, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@Adam9007: It's not going to be the {{u}} template. Templates do not, by themselves, trigger notifications: the required feature is a link to the user page. If a template - whether that be {{u}}, {{user}}, {{replyto}} or similar - happens to generate a user page link, a notification will be sent exactly as if a bare link had been used, as I did in this post. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: Your first diff didn't notify because it was a modification, not a new post. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I’m not receiving any pings from anyone either. For example, Huon pinged me multiple times on article talk pages where they started discussions about an issue with which I am involved. However, I didn’t get any of those notifications, and I was only aware of the discussions because I was watching those talk pages. Additionally, I didn’t get any notifications when my edits were reverted on some pages, even though my settings are supposed to send me such notices. This is appearing to be a technical bug of some sort, because pings and other notifications were working just fine a few days ago. Also, when I get a talk page message, the “You have new messages” banner appears, in addition to a notification in Special:Notifications. This is weird. —Ecstatic Electrical, 01:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    I also have this impression, because I did not change any related setting and the edit history did show that the signature was present in the two edits I mentioned (a requirement for successful notification). —PaleoNeonate – 01:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
This edit from an alternative account with "Successful mention" enabled at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo gave the account "Your mention of PrimeHunter was sent", but my PrimeHunter account did not receive a notification. This may be a case of phab:T177825. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Pings are being received if they're sent using the {{Reply to}} template. It's pings sent by {{User link}} that appears to be the problem. That said, {{ping}} is the same as {{Reply to}}, so who knows? Adam9007 (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I used {{ping}} and you used {{re}}. I didn't get either. When the software told the sending account that a notification was sent, I doubt it's related to which template was used. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: It's not. The key requirement is a link to the user page. Templates have nothing to do with it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
It sounds like you are referring to the mention feature in general when it's working correctly. We were discussing why some notifications failed to go through when they satisfied all the requirements including a link to the user page. When something is partially broken, it's fair to speculate about which circumstances cause it to fail. I received several mention notifications today so it works in some cases. My guess is that the failures are independent of whether a template or which template was used. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Not sure if my comment belongs here but Ecstatic Electrical mentioned they don't recieve revert notifications - Neither do I, It seems the little red number has stopped for me, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 10:59, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    Having the same problem over here, too. Patient Zerotalk 11:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
    And Davey2010 just mentioned me, and yet I didn’t get pinged. Like before, I was only aware because I’m watching this page. —Ecstatic Electrical, 11:32, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm also confirming that it persists. —PaleoNeonate – 17:08, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I've also been missing pings lately. GABgab 17:45, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
I have figured out what was causing this problem. 1367 users are affected on English Wikipedia, and they are not receiving any notifications (mentions or otherwise) from logged-in users (but notifications coming from anons should work). I have a fix lined up, but we probably won't be able to roll it out until Monday (most people don't work over the weekend, I usually don't either). In the meantime, you can work around the issue by making a change to your preferences. It can be any change, and you can even change it back, as long as you save in between. For example, change your language to Canadian English, save, change it back, save. Once you do that, you should start receiving notifications again. For a more detailed (technical) explanation and for a play-by-play of how I figured this out over the course of an hour, see my comments on the Phabricator task. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 00:06, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Roan Kattouw (WMF): I have now made a pref change/un-change. Will I need to do this on all other wikis too?
Also, is there any possibility that these incorrectly-muted notifications could be re-sent? Since Monday 9 October 2017, the only notifications that I have received have been of just two kinds: (i) 'Your mention of Example was sent' and (ii) 'Example‬ left a message on your talk page in "‪Thread"'. It's easy to find out who has thanked me in that period; it's all recorded at Special:Log/thanks - but the notifications which I have really missed are those concerning: mentions elsewhere than my talk page; edit reverts; and notifications (of all types) from another wiki. I am certain that I have been reverted in the past six days, but I only know about those on my watchlist; similarly, I don't know who has mentioned me elsewhere than discussion pages on my watchlist. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
So I received my first ping today (since about a week ago) after changing a setting, saving, then changing it back, saving again. Lost notifications are not available in the log, however. I agree that it would be a very nice thing if when the bug is fixed the log could also be restored (assuming that it's still available somewhere in non-public logs)... —PaleoNeonate – 16:21, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: @PaleoNeonate: Yes, you would have to do that on every wiki. However, that issue should be moot quite soon, as my fix for this should roll out within the next half hour or so (I'll update here when it does). Sadly, muted notifications are not stored (since muting happens at send time) and I don't think they're going to be recoverable. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
It took a bit longer than half an hour because we mistakenly believed that my patch broke other things, but as of about 10 minutes ago, my fix is live. --Roan Kattouw (WMF) (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I started reveiving pings again last night. Thank you Roan. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

No notifications when reverted

I don't seem to be receiving alerts and emails anymore when being reverted, at least when it's "undo," which I find especially useful when dealing with vandals or other disruptive users. Don't know if it's the same for reversions with tools. My preferences haven't changed and the "edit revert" radio boxes under Notifications are still checked. I think it was working last week. Amaury (talk | contribs) 14:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Not_receiving_pings. Elitre (WMF) (talk) 14:01, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
For me, it wasn't working for more half a year, but maybe its because I don't get reverted a whole lot. Try to revert this edit (as a test) that I just made on this page, so I can see what's going on.--Biografer (talk) 22:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Just an update. Mentions are working again, but still no notifications when reverted. Amaury (talk | contribs) 14:01, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Editing through protection

Background info: WP:AN#The Rambling Man

Is it technically possible for a system to be set in place that would allow an editor to edit a protected page (template/navbox/whatever) when said editor would normally be prohibited from editing that page by the protection in place?

A specific scenario is to allow The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) to edit {{In the news}} and other templates that make up the Main Page. These are protected at Admin level and also cascade protected. Apparently it is not possible to downgrade these templates to allow template editors to edit them due to the cascading protection. What I have in mind is a system which would permit admins to name editors who would be allowed to edit. This could either be done through the system in place to protect the page or by adding a template to the protected page which would allow named people to bypass the protection.

Conversely, if the above is possible, might it also be possible to disallow named editors from editing certain pages where they would normally be allowed to edit. This could be a useful alternative to locking a page in the case of an edit war, stopping the fighters from editing whilst allowing other editors to carry on editing. Mjroots (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: has proposed a "block from specific page" function, for the record. Also, given how cascade protection works being able to edit cascade protected pages will always by default entail the ability to lift and impose cascade protection. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Theoretically, possible. Realistically, very difficult and unlikely to gain support. Blocking or exempting from a specific page would be technically difficult and result in a lot of administrative overhead. Instead, we have edit requests. ~ Rob13Talk 18:22, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Good to hear that it might be theoretically possible. What I had in mind was that adding a template to a protected article would probably be best. It could be called {{alloweditor}} and would work by piping allowed editors names after the template (e.g. {{alloweditor|Joe Bloggs}}). The one with the opposite effect could be called "disalloweditor". Obviously there would need to be a safeguard to stop editors not at admin level or higher from adding and removing these templates. This could be done by similar software to that which prevents adding links to blacklisted urls, i.e. it would check on saving that the editor has administrative privileges or higher before allowing the edit to save. Mjroots (talk) 18:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
This implementation would not be possible without substantially reworking the software. Templates aren't connected to user rights/blocks in any way, nor can they easily be made to be. The closest thing to your implementation would be a magic word, but even that would have serious issues because we have no infrastructure in place to connect a magic word with user rights nor for user rights to block from only certain pages. Not to mention we'd need an expensive (bordering on impossibly expensive) edit filter to prevent non-admins from adding the template or magic word to an article to bypass protection for another editor. This is technically possible in the sense that rewriting Wikipedia from scratch is technically possible; it would be a massive undertaking bordering on a complete rewrite of the code handling blocks. ~ Rob13Talk 20:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree here - this is not something that exist - yes anything could be made in theory but a use case of making individual user<->page access lists is unlikely to attract much development time, or WMF adoption. — xaosflux Talk 04:11, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
No, this isn't possible without major reworking of how the protection system currently works. I think the easiest solution here is to have the editor in question apply to be an administrator. FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY [u+1F602] 04:34, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
That is not an option. Mjroots (talk) 05:11, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

The "block from page" proposal is a different idea to this, it's to stop having to deal a complete block to users who are only disrupting one page (eg: from edit-warring) and should keep the drama at ANI down (eg: "The Brilliant Content Contributor was blocked for going over 1RR on an article with Discretionary sanctions! He was in the middle of my FAC review! The blocking admin is an idiot - desysop him!") Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 18:36, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: - see my comments above. I think we're both aiming at the same target. Mjroots (talk) 18:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

An admin-bot could always copy a page-version by approved-user from unprotected-page-A to fully-protected-page-B. In this instance page-A could even be template protected, as a convenient redundant layer. It seems like such a bot might have other uses as well, assuming it doesn't already exist. Alsee (talk) 19:05, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Alsee: - that would work in the specific case I mentioned, "Main Page/TE" (or the relevant templates subpaged /TE)for those with template editor privileges, and an admin level bot to check every x minutes and make the necessary changes. Mjroots (talk) 19:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
This would need a full RfC, probably listed at CENT. It's essentially allowing non-admins to edit through full protection via bot. That has the potential to be controversial. Keep in mind that if we do this, it would not be only for one editor; many editors (who may know nothing about DYK or the main page) will gain access. ~ Rob13Talk 13:36, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Technically speaking, it wouldn't be difficult to set it up so that the bot looks at a (full-protected) page listing users and the pages they have access to. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 09:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Of course it will need a full RFC. The purpose of my original post was to work out whether or not there was a technical solution to the problem, which it looks like there may be. Also appreciate that it will allow a number of editors access to editing the Main Page which they do not now have. Mjroots (talk) 16:37, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@BU Rob13: would WP:VPP be the most suitable venue to propose the /TE idea? Mjroots (talk) 09:35, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It's at least the venue we previously discussed it at (without any outcome though). I had also made the same proposal Alsee mentions above back then without traction. Possibly this might be more successful as an RfC with CENT. Regards SoWhy 09:43, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
RFC posted at WP:VPP#RFC: Proposal to allow Template Editors the ability to indirectly edit the Main Page and listed on CENT. Mjroots (talk) 13:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Misaligned table cell lines

This has been bugging me for a while. I have noticed that, in a number of wikitables, some cells do not accurately align with adjacent cells. In other words, the bottom line of a particular cell may appear 1px below the bottom line of the cell adjacent to it. Is this a browser issue or a Wikipedia one? FWIW I'm using Internet Explorer 11.--Nevéselbert 02:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

@Neve-selbert: Examples please. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I created a task at Phabricator T178005, which was declined for lack of information apparently.--Nevéselbert 17:10, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
It's almost certainly a browser issue, although there's a slight chance there's broken CSS somewhere. Anomie 18:00, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
It sounds likely to just be a browser issue in certain circumstances but you didn't post the page name and also failed to do it here. I have never seen the issue in Firefox. You should follow Aklapper's advice and make reproducible reports. The page name you are posting about is an absolute minimum. I found it at List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom#Since 1721 after some searching but I really shouldn't have to do that. I cannot reproduce it in Internet Explorer 11.608.15063.0 on Windows 10. Details like zoom level, font size and window size can affect browser rendering. I did notice a similar issue with vertical borders around merged cells sometimes differing by a pixel in IE 11. I guess the browser uses a system with "local" cell border calculations without ensuring the table gets globally consistent borders. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:29, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Might it have something to do with the skin I'm using? I use WP:MONOBOOK.--Nevéselbert 19:42, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Neve-selbert: Is it List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom#Since 1721? There's a lot of rowspan= going on there. Maybe one of them is miscounted; you also need to avoid "disappearing" rows, as here:
Row 1, col 1, default size Row 1-2, col 2, 2 rows deep
Row 2-3, col 1, 2 rows deep
Row 3, col 2, default size
That's a three-row table, but in some browsers it may appear to have just two rows. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:18, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes it is the list of British prime ministers. I should note that, when I enable Compatibility View, the lines correctly align. Strange.--Nevéselbert 20:23, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Many things might affect a small rendering detail like this. Skin could be one of them but I don't see the problem in MonoBook and IE11 with or without Compatibility View. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:45, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Checked again, the lines no longer align in Compatibility View. I have tried tweaking the settings in Internet options but to no avail. @PrimeHunter: Which operating system are you using to run Internet Explorer 11? This might be a Windows 8 problem.--Nevéselbert 02:07, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I have Windows 10 as said above. PrimeHunter (talk) 10:12, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Do you know whether it would be possible to force table cell lines to align? Thanks in advance.--Nevéselbert 15:25, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: Do you think is a Windows 8 problem? If so, I'll try to upgrade as soon as I can.--Nevéselbert 16:13, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
I think it depends on the browser and not the Windows version. As mentioned, I see a similar issue with vertical borders in IE11 on Windows 10. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
If they're in the same row, they must align. If they're not aligning, they can't be in the same row. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
To be clear Redrose64, the issue here is pixel alignment. I don't think rows have anything to do with it.--Nevéselbert 22:17, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
PrimeHunter is right, this is a browser issue, more specifically an Internet Explorer issue. I was able to get my hands on Windows 10 yesterday and the lines aligned perfectly in Edge, but not in Internet Explorer 11.--Nevéselbert 00:47, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Disappearance of menu in Recent changes

Hello, does anyone else experience this problem: Just an hour ago I logged in, went to recent changes, and the whole menu have disappeared (i.e. I can't choose how many pages to display (from 50 to 500)). Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.--Biografer (talk) 20:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Thursday change. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I was editing pages on this site every day (including Thursdays), never had an issue. What's changed (or changing)?--Biografer (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
From #Tech News: 2017-41 above:
  • Octicons-sync.svg The new version of MediaWiki will be ... on all wikis from 12 October (calendar).
If you look back through this page and its archives, most of the "unexpected" changes happen on Thursdays. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
The English Wikipedia always gets new MediaWiki versions on Thursdays, and got one this week. I suspect Redrose64 is just guessing that it's related. I get a menu at Special:RecentChanges but a couple of seconds after the rest of the page has loaded. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:06, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
We should try and isolate if it does have to do with the new version first. Does selecting "Hide the improved version of Recent Changes" in prefs change anything? -- The Voidwalker Whispers 23:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
@PrimeHunter: and @The Voidwalker: Your site already says that it's October 13. So no, apparently it have nothing to do with October 12 update. Will see if hiding it will do anything for me, if not, seek your suggestion and support. Thanks. PS: What would we do if it will not be fixed by October 19, shouldn't we just revert changes?--Biografer (talk) 02:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Today being 13 October will have nothing to do with it. MediaWiki updates are typically rolled out once a week, on Thursdays, in the middle of the day (California time). If it is a MediaWiki problem, don't expect any change until Thursday 19 October.
@PrimeHunter: I also see that Recent Changes is different, instead of nice quick "50 100 250 500" links that were present right from the start, I now have to wait for the JavaScript to stop churning, click a button (that is not present until the JavaScript finishes), then click another button. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:42, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and the buttons, having grey text on a grey background, are not good for accessibility. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Biografer, is your interface looking like that one?
Redrose64, the colors as they are used pass the WCAG tests AA and AAA levels.
Trizek (WMF) (talk) 08:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Trizek (WMF): You will be surprised, but, no. All of them are white coloured and where its light green its bright yellow (old version). The problem is, is that the whole filter menu is gone, and three dots (indicating loading screen) appears. With that thing absent, I can only view 50 pages at a time, and when I am done, I need to hit recent changes link to refresh it. I hope, now you can get a clearer picture of what's going on. And yes, I tried hiding List of abbreviations box, tried to log out/log in back, nothing. :(--Biografer (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer: At least until you get it sorted out, you can go to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rc and check Hide the improved version of Recent Changes three sections down. Nihlus 16:08, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Now it works, like a charm.--Biografer (talk) 16:15, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
@Biografer:, I didn't get your notification (they are broken). The interface you have (had, before you opt-out) is apparently the right one. At least, there is no interference from a script or a gadget. On recent changes with the new interface, you can still change the number of pages you want to view, like any function you had before. There is new functions as well, like a direct link to update the list of results without reloading the page each time. Please have a look at the documentation to know more. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Superb - that fix in the preferences works like a charm. Thanks! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:42, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

IPBE and autoblocks

I was under the impression that IPBE allowed you to edit through autoblocks as well as through hardblocked IPs, and also I was under the impression that admins had IPBE by default. Which of those statements is wrong? Trying to find MediaWiki:Autoblockedtext, I decided to get it directly, so I blocked my alt account, logged out, logged into it, tried to edit (and got the you-have-been-blocked message), logged out, got the autoblocked message, logged into my main account — and I was autoblocked! The message said Editing from Nyttend backup has been blocked..., as if I were still logged into the alt. I thus posted a request with {{unblock-auto}}, and after a few minutes User:Floquenbeam came along and resolved the situation. The biggest annoyance here, moreover, is that as I was autoblocked from editing any pages other than my talk, I couldn't unblock my alt account, so I ended up being unable to undo my own block; when you post an unblock template, it looks rather silly to have the link to the blocking admin's page be black because the unblock is posted on the blocking admin's talk page :-)

So where did I go wrong? As an admin, shouldn't I be able to edit through an autoblock? I've been able to do that in the past; see [4]. Several years ago, I tried to use my alt account to edit from a public computer, but I found that it was autoblocked, so I used the main account to request IPBE for the alt (I didn't get autoblocked), and once someone gave me IPBE for the alt, I went back to using it and didn't have further problems. That was almost eight years ago; did we have some sort of software change that takes IPBE away from the basic admin rights package? Nyttend (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

@Nyttend: It sounds like you possibly hit a cookie block, which is different then a normal IP block. — xaosflux Talk 22:50, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) According to Special:ListGroupRights, admins are exempted from IP blocks (search for ipblock-exempt, given to admins, bots and users with the IP block exemption user right). Also, the page states that this user right exempts the user from autoblocks.
The user right torunblocked, which allows you to edit using Tor (anonymity network), is apparently only given to those who are specifically given the IP block exemption user right: admins and bots can't use Tor by default. --Stefan2 (talk) 22:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Hm, cookie block; I figured those simply were another means of assigning autoblock, i.e. it's a normal autoblock that detects you by means of a cookie, not by means of your IP address. I wasn't using Tor; it was just the public wireless network at Wendy's #2834, which uses Comcast IP Nyttend (talk) 23:07, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It could be that it was a cookie block, especially if you were using the same browser. See also phab:T5233. This may need some more experimenting. Generally it will be the same "person" that would be impacted by a cookie block, so being autoblock exempt (which is designed to prevent collateral damage for DHCP and rangeblocks) doesn't quite apply. — xaosflux Talk 00:30, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it was the same browser. So I could have just closed the browser and logged in with another one? That didn't occur to me. Also, what's DHCP? WP:DHCP is red. And finally, is it intentional that you can't do things like blocks and protections when you're blocked? It seems rather pointless, since as a security measure it's not useful (a rogue admin can always unblock himself and continue to make mayhem until he's desysopped), and any kind of tool usage when you're blocked will get you in big trouble anyway, unless, like here, you're testing; it seems silly that removing a block that I myself had set would be impossible as long as I didn't get desysopped. Nyttend (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
PS, of course I know that this is a rare (and silly) situation, so I understand if fixing the problems I've identified here isn't considered to be worth the effort. Nyttend (talk) 00:44, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
DHCP = DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol), a way of assigning an IP address for you when your computer connects to the Internet. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, of course, the important thing is that important things such as deleting and protecting don't have to be bundled in with block (and more importantly unblockself). Therefore, the easiest way to deal with abusive accounts/problems in general is to simply block the user and not worry about handling rights in the short term. Of course, here on WP that doesn't really apply. -- The Voidwalker Whispers 00:55, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
If we got rid of unblockself, that would be fine with me; I just don't understand why that's an option and other stuff isn't (either all of them should be options, or none of them should be), since the rogue admin can't really be stopped without bureaucrat or steward assistance, but the confused self-autoblocking admin has to get help. Nyttend (talk) 01:06, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
The only thing admins can do when blocked is unblockself and editowntalk (if not also blocked). If you would have used a different computer or certain other browsers you would have a new set of cookies and would not be impacted by the cookie block anymore. — xaosflux Talk 01:17, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Having tested it myself, I can confirm that an admin can edit from an autoblocked IP address, but not from a cookie-blocked browser. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

What changed with Template:Rfd categorization?

Has there been a recent change in the way {{rfd}} codes a redirect as being listed for deletion? This never used to happen at all, but the uncategorized pages tools now pick up RFD-listed redirects as uncategorized "articles" — I just had to run through an AWB batch of about 230 redirects, adding them to Category:Temporary maintenance holdings to get the list cleared. I've never had to do this before, and I definitely don't want to ever have to do it again — could somebody figure out why this is happening and fix it? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 04:17, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't know, but I've just added an invocation of Category:Temporary maintenance holdings within the RFD template's includeonly tags. Nyttend (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. For the record, there was also a post to Wikipedia talk:Redirects for discussion yesterday by somebody else, noting that nominated redirects are also now getting picked up as new "articles" that need to be reviewed by WP:NPP — which is also something that never happened before and shouldn't be happening now, and most likely has the same root cause as the categorization-queue problem. Bearcat (talk) 14:05, 14 October 2017 (UTC)


To save vertical space, is it possible to put two Egyptian hieroglyphs in Template:Hiero side by side, similar to the default placing in Template:Multiple image? I know it's possible via <hiero> </hiero>, but in that case it would give an impression of a single word or phrase, which is sometimes undesirable. Brandmeistertalk 12:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Some caption
Does not look so. What do you need? Cannot something custom like this(→) be used? --ᛒᚨᛊᛖ (ᛏᚨᛚᚲ) 23:04, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
Yep, should work, thanks. Brandmeistertalk 07:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

IP was somehow able to edit a semi-protected page

This article was semi-protected by Samsara at 04:07 UTC today. Five minutes later, an IP address somehow was able to edit the page despite semi-protection having been applied before they edited. —MRD2014 Talk • Edits • Help! 15:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The logs appear to indicate that pending changes protection was applied, meaning that registered editors can see live edits even before they have been moderated/accepted, but they should see them in a separate section of the history until they are reverted/accepted (WP:PEND for more details). —PaleoNeonate – 15:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It was also semi-protected at the same time, as seen in the logs (the times are in Eastern Time):
  • 00:07, 15 October 2017 Samsara (talk | contribs) configured pending changes settings for Motu Patlu [Auto-accept: require "autoconfirmed" permission] (Persistent disruptive editing: via RfPP) (hist)
  • 00:07, 15 October 2017 Samsara (talk | contribs) protected Motu Patlu [Edit=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (expires 23:07, 14 November 2017) [Move=Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access] (expires 23:07, 14 November 2017) (Persistent disruptive editing: via RfPP) (hist)
MRD2014 Talk • Edits • Help! 16:39, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
No, it was first semi-protected, and then pending changes protected (but very close together). Christian75 (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
But I can not edit it as IP-user. So you are right, it seems very stange that the IP could edit the article. Nothing has changed since the IPs edit. Christian75 (talk) 18:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It may be that the IP began editing just before the page was protected and was allowed to save edit. Ruslik_Zero 19:51, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
I tried doing that, and my anon browser was disallowed from saving the edit. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 03:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Recent Changes problems

I have used Recent Changes for the past year, but the Recent Changes won't load properly when I put in my custom changes to fight vandalism, it just sit there and load for minutes. Is it a bug in the coding? Gary "Roach" Sanderson (talk) 16:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

@Gary "Roach" Sanderson: This may be a backward step, but on the "Recent changes" preferences tab there is a checkbox labelled "Hide the improved version of Recent Changes". Your custom changes may be incompatible with the latest version. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:21, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
What "custom changes" ??? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:42, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

"Do you really want to remove page X from your watchtlist?"

Today, viewing my watchlist, I can click to remove a page. All fine, very professional. But hey. Randomly I must confirm, and even then we do not return to the page came from. -DePiep (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

@DePiep: This is likely because the page had not finished loading Javascript, or because an error in your scripts had an error and then interrupted the rest of the Javascript initialisation. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
To be clear: viewing my watchlist I can click a linked "×", then the page is struck <s>-style in view, all right. In other moments (IMO randomly), by that same "×" click I must confirm in a page clicking "Yes", and then click to return to my Watchlist. This is the not funny route I complain about.
re TheDJ: is this something I have set or I can set? (Must say, I was working on a slow old WinXP setup. Related?). -DePiep (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
What browser? Note that most old browers don't have working JavaScript due to safety issues. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Firefox 52.4.0 (=latest IMO). I think there is more in TheDJ's note: very slow computer, so scripts may not be active. -DePiep (talk) 20:38, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
@DePiep: "I can click a linked "×", then the page is struck -style in view i'm still wondering what is giving you that functionality... Cause i don't have it, and i can't find it either. :) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 21:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
In my Watchlist, it is in the second column (first column is: blue/green colored ball/triangle-to-unfold; third+ columns are the "m, b" indicators). It's a wikilink, so "×" has regular underline. When fast, the whole page line is struck and greyed out right away (good). When slow, the issue at hand, it leads to url [5] (demo page infobox here; of course wrt my own watchlist). Could be related to a Preference I have set. Clear enough? -DePiep (talk) 21:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist - "Add direct unwatch/watch links to watchlist entries (JavaScript required for toggle functionality)". -- The Voidwalker Whispers 22:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Tech News: 2017-42

15:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Looking for small tasks+mentors for new contributors - got something in mind?

Hi everybody! Google Code-in (GCI) will soon take place again - a seven week long contest for 13-17 year old students to contribute to free software projects. Tasks should take an experienced contributed about two-three hours and can be of the categories Code, Documentation/Training, Outreach/Research, Quality Assurance, and User Interface/Design. Do you have an idea for a task and could you imagine mentoring that task? For example, do you have something on mind that needs documentation, research, some gadget or template issues on your "To do" list but you never had the time, and can imagine enjoying mentoring such a task to help a new contributor? If yes, please check out mw:Google Code-in/2017 and become a mentor! Thanks in advance! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 19:51, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Why does the right column of this table not align center?

Align left Align center
good bad
good bad
good bad
good bad

Obviously I'm misunderstanding the "scope" parameter or something. But is there a way to do this other than setting the style of every cell in the column? Help:Table doesn't give an answer. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1] 23:44, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

You do infact have to style each cell manually. (unless someone else knows a trick here) Dysklyver 10:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, this is a limitation in html. Each cell in a column must be styled. It would technically be possible for MediaWiki to make a way to add the same styling to every cell in the generated html but that hasn't been done and maybe shouldn't be done due to complications like possible explosion of html size. Some tables use a row template which adds styling. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

This is a limitation of wikitext not of html (see It can be overcome using sitewide CSS and nth type pseudo classes (although that will increase page size for everyone) or by something like Help:TemplateStyles. 11:58, 17 October 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk)

HTML5 allows all cells in a column to be styled as a group, this is done using the <colgroup>...</colgroup> and <col /> elements (which date back to HTML 4.0), but we can't make use of this feature because those two elements are not whitelisted. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 16:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Putting the "text-align: center" statement into the table start row makes all text in the table centred.
e.g. class="wikitable" style="width: 300px; text-align: center;" produces
Align left Align center
good bad
good bad
good bad
good bad
then it is a question of making anything different a separate cell based statement. Nthep (talk) 16:33, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Help re "Timeless" skin

How do I use this: mw:Skin:Timeless? Dysklyver 09:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

@A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver: On Someone needs to deploy it first. See this discussion. (For future reference, a less generic thread summary than "Help" is welcome.) --Malyacko (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. So who do I pester to get it enabled? or does that require an RfC? Dysklyver 10:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
You could post at phab:T154371. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver: You'd need an RfC; the other projects for which it's been added all have had RfCs to enable it. I assume it will be relatively inconsequential and will pass easily, but you, or the proposer (if not you), should explain that nothing changes for the people who don't like those sorts of newfangled things. Jc86035 (talk) 15:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Enabling the Timeless skin

It is proposed that the Timeless skin available at mw:Skin:Timeless is added to the en-wikipedia configuration as a optional skin which could be enabled in user preferences. There are currently 5 skins available in preferences. This will be the sixth.

The current default skin that controls how most people see Wikipedia is Vector; this will not change.

Unless an individual user wants to use the Timeless skin and enables it in their preferences, it will not be visible or change the user interface in any way. This skin has been tested and is currently enabled as a non-default preference on other Wikipedia including the French language Wikipedia, Wiktionary (fr), Wikinews (fr) and on the MediaWiki wiki.

Please don't oppose this just because you don't like it; you never have to know it is there, it will not affect any other skins or appearance settings. It is a completely optional choice, new users will still use Vector, and everyone who doesn't change their settings will still use Vector (or their other skin choice such as Monobook). > Dysklyver 15:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)


  1. Support; useful for beta testing due to large community here and no changes for editors who don't want it. Jc86035 (talk) 16:01, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  2. I don't see any reason not to support this implementation, but given my limited knowledge of anything MediaWiki-related, I'll keep an eye here and consider any opposition duly. — fourthords | =Λ= | 16:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  3. Support - it's a nice look, better than most existing options, so as long as it won't affect anyone who doesn't decide to use it, why not enable it here. Ravensfire (talk) 16:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  4. Support. Optional, and nothing wrong with having an additional option. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  5. Support - nice looking optional skin, with active technical support to resolve any issues that remain with it. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  6. Support Shall be nice to try on. Isarra has always had a keen eye for design. My name isnotdave (talk/contribs) 22:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  7. Sure why not? also I don't see why this is on CENT. Its about enabling an optional skin, not really something that needs sitewide advertisement. If no one objects, I'd suggest removing it. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  8. Support - Why not? Looks like it could be good. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  9. Go for it. Adding it as an optional opt-in preference setting is low-impact for the most part, so it can probably be done right away without waiting the typical RFC discussion period. Mz7 (talk) 09:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
  10. Support. Nice to have another option, and it looks good. SarahSV (talk) 01:55, 22 October 2017 (UTC)



  • I have added this RfC to {{Centralized discussion}} and mentioned it in the Phabricator task. Jc86035 (talk) 16:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: We don't usually allow RFCs on VPT, but this seems like the right forum to me. Given that it's on CENT, we might want to consider a short RFC period (like two or three days) if this looks like SNOW in favor of support. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
    @Jonesey95: The listing on {{Centralized discussion}} has been removed. I would favour closing in about two weeks. Jc86035 (talk) 15:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

User magic word

Hello again. I failed to find a magic word which expands to the current user's name in the documentation, like USERNAME (ideally not the signature). I thought of an unsubst trick with tildes, but tildes output the signature anyway, not the actual username (assuming that the signature includes a link to the user page, possibly that a fancy URL extraction trick would also be possible). Does anyone know of a simple trick to have a template automatically output the editor/substitutor's username as part of its results? Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 09:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you can do this unless the template is actually on the users userpage, when you can use variations of PAGENAME. The full list of parser thingies is Help:Magic_words. Dysklyver 10:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This is not possible, as it would mean that the page would be different for each user viewing it, which makes it uncachable. Wikimedia is very dependent on caching, therefore such functionality is not provided. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 11:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Unless the template that does this is being substituted, in which case you can use {{REVISIONUSER}} {{repeat|p|3}}ery (talk) 11:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
If you want to permanently save the the name of a user making an edit then {{subst:REVISIONUSER}} will do it. In a template to be substituted you can for example write {{safesubst:<noinclude />REVISIONUSER}} to prevent your own username from being saved when you edit the template. {{REVISIONUSER}} without subst: will display the last editor of the page, or a user previewing the page. It is not possible to display the name of the user reading a page. We could make global JavaScript to modify certain code on a page after loading but it would only work for users with JavaScript and there are other issues. I don't support it. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:15, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes I'd of course want it to be permanent (substituted at edit time). This may be what I was looking for, thank you very much, —PaleoNeonate – 12:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It works great, thanks again! —PaleoNeonate – 12:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

DYK's should be viewable from Mobiles too

Currently, Mobile view of Wikipedia's Main Page doesn't show the Did you know section. I think this should be shown as a large number of readers visit Wikipedia from mobiles and tablets, I-pads etc and DYK's aren't being exposed to them. Also, some topics may share interests with mobile readers, like an Apple smartphone hook, which recieves less views on Computers but more from Mobiles and Tablets. What do you guys think about this ? Request a passing administrator to implement this if enough users agree. (talk) 11:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

The above message was posted on WT:DYK, and I'm copying here FYI. — Maile (talk) 12:43, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
A month ago, I had the same question about TFP. The explanations were interesting. (Main page still in table format, not in responsive format). -DePiep (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Lame. This needs fixing. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
It's not broken. -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Actually its quite simple, the existing main page layout can't be made responsive because Wikipedia has very limited global CSS which does not allow for it. The other option, that of changing the layout, has already been subject to wheel warring and bitter infighting. So nothing happens. And before you say we should have a main page just for mobiles, that can't be done without breaking the mediawiki software. Dysklyver 20:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver could yo clarify: "Wikipedia has ..." is that enwiki, mw, WMF? As I understood TheDJ, it was enwiki local only (other lang-wikis may have improved their main page). -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe that the French Wikipedia created a responsive Main Page about two years ago. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I recognise the situation of heaven-blocking "no consensus so no change" (me in lower level situations ;-) ). Does not this sort of point out that the Wikipedia consensus model needs improvement? -DePiep (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
mw:Extension:TemplateStyles is the solution once it is deployed here. — JJMC89(T·C) 02:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Indeed mw:Extension:TemplateStyles would fix this by allowing us to define main page specific CSS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver (talkcontribs) 10:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Odd template/infobox error

Can someone who knows templates look at this article and figure out what's going on in the infobox? I had a couple of whacks at fixing it, see History, but I can't figure it out. Maury Markowitz (talk) 15:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

The {{Start date and age}} template does not like spaces in the month parameter. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Fixed in the template [12] to avoid this limitation. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

"undo" feature: the pre-filled edit summary for IPv6 users

I just noticed that the "undo" feature makes the pre-filled edit summary for edits by IPv6 users look like "Undid revision 803835351 by Special:Contributions/2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112".
The "Special:Contributions/" part obviously being unwanted. --Pipetricker (talk) 15:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

I think MediaWiki:Undo-summary is the page that controls that pre-filled summary. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:34, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Correct, and there are two versions given the length of the string.
Undid revision 803835351 by Special:Contributions/2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112 → 93 characters of code (current version)
Undid revision 803835351 by 2600:8807:A200:DFC0:D890:F762:DA51:9112 (talk) → 194 characters of code (previous version)
The previous version only allowed 61 additional characters to provide a reasoning. See also: MediaWiki_talk:Undo-summary#IPv6_uses_194_of_255_characters. Nihlus 15:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Ah, now I realize that piping the IPv6 number consumes too many characters, and avoiding that is worth the ugliness when lacking a better solution. Has there been any thought about making MediaWiki handle this better? When noticing this, it jumped out as looking plain wrong, even though it's a sensible workaround. @PrimeHunter. --Pipetricker (talk) 16:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
This would be a new feature request, see WP:BUGS for instructions on how to make these. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I'll give it a try. --Pipetricker (talk) 08:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Mostly this would be fixed with longer edit summaries (phab:T6715), the work for which has mostly been done in phab:T166732, but deploying it to Wikimedia is invasive and will occur very carefully. That deploy process is tracked at phab:T166733 and likely will take a few more months. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. Then maybe I won't bother. --Pipetricker (talk) 09:34, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Mojibake filenames

c:Commons:Bots/Work requests#Rename files with wonky Unicode encoding may interest some of the very technically minded here. At least 10,000 files need renaming. — Dispenser 16:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation missing while requesting page through JSON API

In the following link the IPA pronunciation for the name Týr is missing:

The JSON includes:

"<p><b>Týr</b> (<span></span>; Old Norse: <i>Týr</i> ... "

Notice the empty <span> just after the "(", where the pronunciation should be.

Before the JSON used to include:

"<p><b>Týr</b> (<span><span>/<span><span title="/ˈ/ primary stress follows">ˈ</span><span title="'t' in 'tie'">t</span><span title="/ɪər/ 'ear' in 'near'">ɪər</span></span>/</span></span>; Old Norse: <i>Týr</i> ..."

Notice that the <span> after the "(" contains the IPA pronunciation (/ˈtɪər/).

The text in the "regular" page ( is:

Týr (/ˈtɪər/;[1] Old Norse: Týr [tyːr]) is a Germanic god ...

I would expect the API response to include the IPA pronunciation, as they used to do.

This started happening recently, maybe a month ago. The second JSON snippet that I pasted is from 2017-01-27, so back then it was definitely working. Also notice that the first IPA (/ˈtɪər/, within //) is missing, whereas the second one ([tyːr], within []) is still included in the API response: perhaps it has something to do with the //. If necessary I can provide more examples and try to determine more accurately the date when this started happening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B89F:F850:61B0:46C5:989D:75 (talk) 19:43, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

It is a deliberate editor choice ( See this). If third parties want to use such information they need to parse the page and retrieve it by themselves. (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
I think this should either be fixed or reverted. Currently the API response is broken after removing the HTML:
Týr (; Old Norse: Týr [tyːr]) ...
Notice the (;.
Similarly in ( the output without HTML tags is:
Beijing, () formerly romanized as Peking, ...
Notice the empty () (or (<span></span>) in the API response).
If the IPA is removed, the () or ; should be removed as well, otherwise the API response looks broken. However I'm not sure why it was removed in the first place, since it's useful and not intrusive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B89F:F850:61B0:46C5:989D:75 (talk) 16:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Twitter Cards / Facebook Open Graph

Both Twitter and Facebook have techniques where a website owner can specify metadata that allows a posted link to be expanded into a small preview. Such previews generally show an image, the page title, the publisher, etc. Many media companies, e.g. CNN, NYTimes, etc., embed support for both Twitter Cards and Facebook's Open Graph, which allows their content to be previewed when linked from either platform. Presently, Wikipedia supports neither.

I'm not really interested in arguing the merits either way, but I'm curious if Wikipedia's current lack of support is due to a conscious choice NOT to support such technologies, or is it more the case that no one has taken the time to try and do so? Dragons flight (talk) 11:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

@Dragons flight: A little bit of both. There is reservations about adding tons of vender specific tags to all our HTML content, so generally, we tried to avoid that. We did implement all the fallback strategies that those platforms supported, so most of the time, it's pretty good actually (unless you want to share an imagepage). See also phab:T56829 and it's many connected tickets. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 14:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure about those fallback strategies. Facebook does seem to generate a preview from Wikipedia content, but Twitter just seems to leave a bare link, e.g. most of the tweets at [13]. It was because of the Twitter case that I actually thought to ask. Thanks for the Phabricator reference. Dragons flight (talk) 15:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
You don't happen to know if any of the existing extensions in this area are reasonably functional? (For potential use on a non-WMF Mediawiki installation.) Dragons flight (talk) 15:27, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Dragons flight: The twitter cards extension, which is referred to in some of those tickets was used to experiment with this and probably still works. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 16:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

When 4 tildes are not a signature

I am messing about with conversions from {{familytree}} to {{chart}}. I recently filled in the missing tiles in chart so that chart can now handle all of the familytree tiles and more. For reasons that are not clear to me there is no one to one mapping of tile names between familytree and chart, but over a decade ago User:GregU wrote a tool that may help (see User:GregU/familytree.js).

I am messing about with a fairly complicated tree that appears in the article Family tree of Muhammad (the first one under the section "Family tree"). I have already converted it by hand so this is a test. As can be seen by looking at the documentation that comes with the templates {{familytree}} to {{chart}} the tile letter that represents a dashed line is a Tilde "~". To represent a line of dashes GregU's tool produces a line of tildes in the ASCII representation. The problem is that if one then saves the ASCII representation, the tildes get converted into signatures.

As GregU no longer appears to be active,I can not ask her/him for help, so can any one tell me if there is a way to save thee or more tildes in a row without them being turned into signatures? -- PBS (talk) 14:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Surround them with nowiki tags like so: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Or for a tiny bit less typing, put a self-closed nowiki tag exactly in the middle, like this: ~~<nowiki/>~~ – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:37, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
A self-closed nowiki tag inside will only work if there are at most four tildes. I don't know your exact use case but a single <pre>...</pre> around a whole block of text may also be an option. This creates a monospaced font and preserves linebreaks like the below example. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:40, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
|              |
|              |
The other option is {{4~}} which gives ~~~~. There is also {{3~}} and {{5~}}. Primefac (talk) 18:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Strange SVG behaviour

When processing a request at FFU, I uploaded File:Logo for Schwan's Company.svg using an SVG I found at the company's website. The logo looks correct if I open the SVG in my web browser, but the PNG generated by Mediawiki is all black. Any idea what might be wrong? --Stefan2 (talk) 18:36, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Use a proper svg capable program like abode illustrator or inkscape to convert it, basically the transparency/colors/code/format/specification/some thingies aren't supported by whatever mediawiki is using. Dysklyver 19:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Stefan2: The main problem is that the <style> tag does not have a type="text/css" attribute. It's not required by the SVG spec, and your browser clearly doesn't care; but some user agents (including librsvg, which we use to create the png versions that are served) won't process the <style>...</style> block without it (more at c:Help:SVG#Stylesheet). I would also add a version="1.1" attribute to the <svg> tag. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
That helped. Thanks, User:Redrose64! --Stefan2 (talk) 20:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Generating lists of articles created by a sockfarm

I help out a lot at WP:COIN. Often one of the things we do is create lists of articles created by sockfarms, for review and cleanup. An example of such a list is User:Bri/COIbox63. A new case created by Doc James today on COIN (we get 2-3 a week sometimes) made me think this might be better automated. I got as far as creating pagepile 11077 as a test, using a mix of crawling sock categories and manually entered untagged accounts, then got stuck. Is there a way to go forward and get a list of articles created by the accounts in the pagepile? - ☆ Bri (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

I created User:The Voidwalker/createdArticles.js. It should do what you're asking. It only lists pages in the article namespace. To use, import the script, and go to Special:CreatedArticles. There is an option to set the limit of pages to all. This may do weird things. I should later make it so that the listed titles have a link to the page, but I'm out of time to work on that for now. -- The Voidwalker Whispers 02:32, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Quarry query

This question is about the Quarry SQL interface. If there's a better place to ask, please let me know.

A query I'm developing takes a long time to run. Is there any way to see the query plan without actually running the SQL? (The Explain button only appears once the SQL is running, and the EXPLAIN statement fails because I don't have the necessary table permissions.) If not, is there any way to stop a query once it's running and I can see from Explain that it's going to hog resources forever without producing useful results?

The specific query is DabPairs, which aims to identify when Foo and Foo (disambiguation) are distinct dab pages (not redirects to each other) but a solution would also be of more general use. The specific problem I'm having is that MySQL refuses to use the name_title index on the page table, despite my specifying a constant P2.page_namespace and an expression for P2.page_title. I've tried using STRAIGHT_JOIN (which successfully forces the join order I'm aiming for) and FORCE INDEX (which fails, telling me that name_title isn't a key) but nothing seems to work.

Suggestions welcome! Certes (talk) 12:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Certes: WP:Request a query may be able to help. --2601:14A:C101:6EA3:C009:AF6:DB8C:3465 (talk) 13:57, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks; query moved to there. Certes (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Skin disappeared

A few weeks ago I changed the theme I am using in Preferences, but it has now changed back to Vector. I'm not sure what it was called, but I don't see any news about it being removed. Where did it go? (I see a RFC about adding "Timeless" skin, that started a couple days ago, maybe that's the one I was using, but that's for *adding* a skin, not removing one.) I'm confused. Thanks! —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 02:53, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

MinervaNeue (example) has disappeared from Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering. I don't know why. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Aha, yes, that's the one I was using, thanks. Hopefully it comes back soon... —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 17:07, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
From what I can see, Minerva has been removed for a bit - it was a beta feature, see also phab:T162494. — xaosflux Talk 18:11, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I see. Dunno why they fix what ain't broken, but whatever :P Fixed it by adding some conditional redirects to my browser, in case anyone else is wondering:
  • Redirect URLs matching[^?]*) to$1?useskin=minerva, excluding URLs matching*[\?&]useskin=minerva
  • Redirect URLs matching*\?.*) to$1&useskin=minerva, excluding URLs matching*[&\?]useskin=minerva
Seems to be working fine, a real relief to have the skin back. Thanks for the info! —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 18:56, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
MinervaNeue is very similar to the mobile version (example) of Wikipedia so you can also try that. It doesn't require browser tricks. In the desktop version of the site, click "Mobile view" at the bottom of a page. Some things like navigation templates are omitted from the mobile version. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks! I prefer the one with the proper skin over the mobile one I think though, it doesn't fold up sections for one thing. Thanks though! (I discovered my redirects above don't work right with anchor fragments in URLs, though; here is a fixed replacement (struck my earlier version):
  • Redirect URLs matching*\?.*)$ to$1&useskin=minerva, excluding URLs matching*[&\?]useskin=minerva|.*#.*)
  • Redirect URLs matching[^\?]*)(#.*)$ to$1?useskin=minerva$2, excluding URLs matching*[\?&]useskin=minerva
  • Redirect URLs matching*\?.*)(#.*)$ to$1&useskin=minerva$2, excluding URLs matching*[&\?]useskin=minerva
  • Redirect URLs matching[^\?]*) to$1?useskin=minerva, excluding URLs matching*[\?&]useskin=minerva|.*#.*)
I think it's working now. Thanks again! :) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 20:25, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
There's a bit of work going on to standardize the skin name internally, this might have been a consequence of that. Minerva/MinervaNueue isn't going away :) FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY [u+1F602] 00:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Cite templates with |script-title= (non-ascii + ascii) |url=... |url-access=registration

In the version of 01:19, 20 October 2017 (now the current version) of Global Buddhist Network, there is a Lint error: Misnested tag with different rendering in HTML5 and HTML4 involving tag span located in the {{reflist}} template. With some experiments in my sandbox, I narrowed it down to this citation:

  • {{cite conference|last1=Buaban|first1=Jesada|date=August 2016|script-title=ความทรงจำในดวงแก้ว: ความทรงจำที่แปรเปลี่ยนไปเกี่ยวกับวัดพระธรรมกายภายใต้ปริมณฑลรัฐบาลทหารปี พ.ศ. 2557–2559|trans-title=Memory in Crystal: Changing Memory on Dhammakaya Movement under the Umbrella of Military Junta 2014–2016|url=|format=pdf|conference=The science of remembering and the art of forgetting 2nd conference|language=th|location=Songkhla-Nakharin University, [[Songkhla]]|publisher=Southeast Asian Studies Program, [[Walailak University]]|page=3|url-access=registration|conference-url=}}

With more experiments in my sandbox, it seems that the lint error happens with any {{cite}} template with parameters |script-title=(non-ascii + ascii) |url=any |url-access=registration. It won't happen if |script-title= is all non-ascii. It won't happen if |title= is used instead of |script-title=. This is demonstrated with several examples in User:Anomalocaris/sandbox/Lint Test. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Known problem; not yet resolved. When you notice anything amiss with cs1|2 templates your first stop should be at Help talk:Citation Style 1, not here.
Trappist the monk (talk) 09:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
OK, Trappist the monk, thanks, and I'll try to remember to go there if there is a next time. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
And in case anyone is interested, I got rid of the lint error in Global Buddhist Network by changing |script-title= to |title= and nesting the Thai-ascii title with two apostrophes before and two apostrophes after to reverse the italicization of the title. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:54, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I would suggest that such fixes are inappropriate. Yeah, 'unfixed' there is a problem but once the issue is remedied in the cs1|2 module suite, the problem goes away; but, 'fixed' cs1|2 templates in wikitext will, almost certainly, never be restored to their correct form. This error in the module suite is not fatal, there is time to remedy it properly. I think that you should undo your 'fix'.
Trappist the monk (talk) 11:01, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Fixing interwiki links?

Hey, I seem to a recall some years back these were moved to meta, and reading a description of the new way to handle them at that time, but I haven't thought about it much since. All the ones I added by the old method were automatically fixed -- I think? But that doesn't help me fix cases where they are already messed up.

Specifically, someone linked the Japanese article ja:仏足石歌 from our article bussokusekika, but our article was actually on the different (but related) topic covered in the Japanese article ja:仏足石歌碑. I moved the page (the earlier title was technically inaccurate, as "bussokusekika" describes a poetic form not exclusive to the bussokuseki-kahi).

But now I don't know how to change the link to to match the identical topic.

Hijiri 88 (やや) 11:10, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

There should be an "edit links" option (with a pencil icon) at the bottom of the Languages section in the left sidebar, taking you to the Wikidata page. Certes (talk) 11:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Hatnote spacing

Is it just me or the spacing between a hatnote and "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" has indeed shrinked? Two samples. The upper spacing was rather identical to the bottom spacing between a hatnote and the article's first sentence several days ago (Windows Firefox, default 100% zoom). Brandmeistertalk 13:13, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

not just you, it's a bug. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 13:51, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@TheDJ: It is fixed here and on some other languages somehow but on :sr: not. Is it possible to fix it there too? --Obsuser (talk) 05:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I know now possible solution, no need for answer. --Obsuser (talk) 18:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Context-specific editor not allowing capital letters

Hi, I have suffered in my editing for about a week, since the rollout of new editor interface which I am using now. Very frequently, but not always, when I try to insert a capital letter or any character which involves the shift key (including the colon character, angle brackets, squiggly brackets at least on my keyboard), the cursor jumps to the left/beginning of the paragraph. It is exasperating! This is using Chrome browser in a Windows 10 environment, with whatever javascript or whatever user-specific settings that I have and don't particularly know about. What is going on? It seems worse editing in the Imicrosoft edge browser. It doesn't happen much in new text entry; it is horrible when I am trying to edit a reference or other template call. Help! --doncram 22:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

The new editor interface is a beta feature and not default. You can get the normal source editor by disabling "Automatically enable all new beta features" and "New wikitext mode" at Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you! It makes sense that I was one of relatively few editors experiencing this via my apparent previous choice to enable beta features, because otherwise WikiProject NRHP and other places would have blown up with complaints. I see that going to that preferences section also allows me to contribute feedback about the "New wikitext mode", which i will do. --doncram 00:01, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Visibility of articles created from redirects

Patrolling new articles, I came yesterday across this article: Serapeum of Alexandria. It was started as a redirect in February, and then started as an article yesterday (by moving text from another article with an attribution, but this is irrelevant for the story; the article is not problematic in any sense). I was checking for copyvio, which is part of my workflow when I deal with NPP, and I found that the article was actually indexed by Google. If I am right, it was indexed by Google because the redirect, which existed here for 8 months, allowed the article to bypass the 3 month threshold of not being indexed by search engines. Again, if this is correct, this is a bug, not a feature. I would propose to count the three months from the date of an actual creation of the article in the case the preceding history only includes redirects (and possibly blanking redirects, just in case).--Ymblanter (talk) 07:25, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

There's no technical difference between a page that exists with the content of indicating a redirect and the content of an article. What you propose is therefore not easily implementable. But as allways feature requests can be filed in phabricator. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 09:18, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. I believe we need consensus here that the feature is needed (or at least there is no consensus against implementing it) before we file a phabricator ticket.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Is there a problem with TOC LIMIT?

I have tried in two different places, one in main space and one in my user sandbox, both with {{toc right |limit=3 or 4}} and with {{toc limit | 3 or 4}} and neither work, yes I am setting the correct respective number of "=" in the section titles. Only a limit of 2 seems to work. Any ideas? Eno Lirpa (talk) 13:07, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

You failed to show or link a real example or say what you think is wrong so you are forcing us to guess. I guess that you refer to User:Eno Lirpa/sandbox/toc stuff and that you think {{toc limit|3}} should never show a level 4 ====A====. But see Template:TOC limit#TOC levels versus wikitext header levels. There is no level 3 ===...=== above ====A====, so it should be displayed and it is for me. It disappears if you insert ===...=== above it. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks - you guessed correctly - toc levels versus heading levels explains it. Resolved. Eno Lirpa (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Template bleedover

Hi all, can someone please look at this version of a user's talk page. The Teahouse greeting is bleeding into the next comment. I tried slapping a {{clear}} onto it, but it didn't help too much. Something is obviously funky about Template:Teahouse thank you. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: Fixed. Purge as needed if you see it elsewhere. Nihlus 23:28, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
@Nihlus: Thanks mate, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:42, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Search intitle: doesn't work right with quoted strings that include a space

intitle:"word1 word2" (notice the space between the words) returns results that do not have the search string in the title.

It seems to happen for any search string with a space in it.

So, intitle:"Milan" produces only items with Milan in their titles, while intitle:"in Milan" includes items which has this in the title, but also includes items that have this only in the article contents and not in the title. This seriously waters down the search results.

What gives?

Is there a way to return only items with "in Milan" in their titles? The Transhumanist (talk) 00:39, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

This happens to me too. Rather annoying. It seems contrary to spec too? If my recollection is correct it was working correctly, or at least much better, two to three months ago? Eno Lirpa (talk) 00:46, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
As regex intitle:/in[ ]Milan/ none found. -- GreenC 00:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I think it's because "in" is a common word which is ignored in some search contexts. I get 400 hits on both intitle:"in Milan" and "in Milan" intitle:Milan. The latter seems to be the actual search performed for both. intitle:"word1 word2" works as expected in my tests with two uncommon words. For example, intitle:"Inter Milan" gives me 56 hits, and all have the quote in the title. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
This should work: Login to (press "OK" when prompted). Enter SQL query SELECT * FROM page WHERE page_namespace = 0 AND page_title LIKE "%in_Milan%" LIMIT 500; -- GreenC 02:29, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Assistance request: Enabling citoid templates on Wikiversity

Hi, I'm trying to enable Citoid templates on Wikiversity (discussion). The configuration process is slightly beyond my technical expertise. Would someone from Wikipedia be able to help me to make sure I don't break anything? Secifically, I need to enable the ability to autogenerate the {{cite journal}} from a DOI and PMID code. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 06:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Word count

Hello! Is there any practical way in which we could have a word count of articles of a given Wikipedia? Maybe enwp is too big, but in euwp we don't have so many articles and this could be a great information on our quality.-Theklan (talk) 12:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

If you want a table showing the word count for all articles at the same time, I can't help you, but if you're only interested in the current article, the following can be added to Special:MyPage/common.js:
$( function() {
	'use strict';
	var container = $( '.mw-parser-output' );
	var text;
	var words;
	if ( container.length ) {
		text = container.text();
		if ( text ) {
			text = text.trim();
			if ( text ) {
				words = text.split( ' ' );
				$( 'h1' ).append( ' (' + words.length + ' words)' );
} );
It's not perfect (the last word in paragraph 1 will count as the same word as the first word in paragraph 2), but if you want a more accurate count, it quickly becomes a lot more complicated. It's also possible to filter out infoboxes or other arbitrary templates if you just throw more code at it, if that's what you want to do. Nirmos (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks Nirmos, it was the global count what I was searching for. The word count of a given article can be done with User:Caorongjin/wordcount. -Theklan (talk) 20:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton template

I've located an issue with {{Hillary Clinton series}}, but I can't figure out how to fix it and wanted to ask for some assistance. The issue is that unlike any other template in Category:"Part of a series on" sidebar templates, this template is resulting in the direct inclusion in that category of every individual articlespace page that transcludes the template — but it's not supposed to be doing that, because that category is for the templates themselves, not for every mainspace article that has one of them on it. But I can't find the category code to determine how to fix it. Can anybody with more template experience take a look at this? Thanks. Bearcat (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

That category was mistakenly added to the template. It was re-removed here but the other articles do not automatically update; the WP:JOBQUEUE has to update them and if it's backlogged you need to WP:PURGE every article. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@Bearcat and Jo-Jo Eumerus: A purge won't work; it needs to be a WP:NULLEDIT to each page that is in the category incorrectly. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Um, purging the articles did actually work for me. JoJo Eumerus mobile (talk) 20:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Purge removes the category from the bottom of the article, but it doesn't remove the article from the list on the category page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Edit conflict: just paste my text below, please

Once more I ran into an Edit conflict situation, and I received the Resolution Screen Of Death: I could not recognise nor even find my own text. (Had to solve it indirectly).

Why does not ec-solver provide this basic solution: Put your text paragraphs below, and add '(ec)' marker. -DePiep (talk) 19:49, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Because edit conflict means: "The sofware is unable to solve this reliably, you need to do it" :) —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:54, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
(ec) TheDJ (So I should solve it manually, by opening this page for edit etc., but the problem really is: find my own text in that new ec-screen) late sign, because of ec's; -DePiep (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Or, give a single text overview! And use three background colors: color-1: OK text (blank), color-2: the other changes text (yellow?), color-3: my text (blue?). (or use more colors for situations, e.g. samep-word conflicts; you'll know about these conflicts). Point is: one text list. HTH. -DePiep (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
RIGHT NOW I am about to loose my next post here because of new ec resolution screen. [I need to do what, TheDJ? Bad luck, retype my post?]. Also, why cannot software put my post right below a preceding "ec" post? -DePiep (talk) 20:06, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
You can return to the old one by going to Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-betafeatures and unchecking Automatically enable all new beta features and Two column edit conflict. Nihlus 20:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks and GF, Nihlus, but we don't need more manuals. I need less manuals, and intuitive screens. -DePiep (talk) 20:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Let me clarify. When ec:
The ec-screen opens with two columns, the right one fuzzed, illegible. Hidden text, many colors: it says I've done something wrong. But what? Then, still without being able to discern texts, I have to click choices on how I want to resolve my error (flashing colors around). Like a monkey, I want my peanut: my own text, in the page. So I push buttons, see what happens. I've never reached the final button that says: "Yes, this is what I want to sign & save".
Then I discovered this: My new text is in the lefthand side column. Never met this before. By nature: lefthand=old, righthand=new. -DePiep (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@DePiep: With the old edit conflict thing, you also got two boxes: the top one is for the page as it stands after the other person's edit, and the bottom one has your edit in it. But of course, whichever type of edit conflict interface you have, you can use the browser's "back" button to return to the pre-conflict edit box. There, you can copy your text to clipboard, back out one more level and edit again, this time pasting instead of typing. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
At least, that was a "Old and recent vs You"-text presentation. I could figure that out. Do you see it is the interface I am complaining about? Today I can not discern any more the crucial before-newlysaved-yournew variants. Let alone the solving steps (how to proceed). And don't forget: many ec's (talkpages!) can be resolved by the button I proposed above: ec? Add my post below!. -DePiep (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh and also don't forget (2): I'd have lost my carefully crafted (time=ec!) texts, had I not circumvented the new ec-screen. -DePiep (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

BTW. There is a simulation for edit conflicts now. The german team has been trying to do some testing with edit conflict resolution, but they are having a very hard time gathering good feedback, because people encounter the screen so infrequently (and often then focus on using it, not giving feedback about it). So they hope that with the simulation, they can gather better feedback. See also: meta:WMDE_Technical_Wishes/Edit_Conflicts/Feedback_Round_Test_PageTheDJ (talkcontribs) 22:10, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

  • @DePiep: I'm aware this could be considered victim-blaming to some degree, but if you don't want potentially buggy features why have you enabled a beta feature? The whole point of beta testing is that you're running potentially buggy scripts to see if they're useful and to identify bugs. ‑ Iridescent 22:18, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Good point. Didn't know I had activated this beta. Deal?: me victim behaviour, sc-interface team accept frustration. Bottom line: there is some serious non-personal sense in the experience I described. -DePiep (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Tip of the day article up for deletion

Here is an AfD for techies.

The lead states: "A tip of the day is a piece of advice that is given daily. For example, many computer programs, such as those in older versions of the Microsoft Office suite, will display a tip of the day when they are started."

Do you know of any major programs that provide a daily tip (upon startup)?

Would that establish notability?

Cheers. The Transhumanist 20:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Some games do on their loading screens, particularly games like the Football Manager series that aren't aimed at traditional gamers and thus there's an assumption that a significant proportion of players will be unfamiliar with gaming conventions. I'm unaware of any major piece of non-game software that still does this (with the obvious exception of Wikipedia); some Microsoft programs used to back in XP and Clippit the Paperclip days but they discontinued it years ago. The computing sense is certainly not the primary use of the term, since I'd be willing to bet (sic) that well over 90% of usage of the phrase relates to sports betting. ‑ Iridescent 22:24, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
@The Transhumanist: perhaps RFC 865 and QOTD would qualify? — xaosflux Talk 22:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
  • What qualifies as a major software?. gimp, solidworks, VMware, Sketch Up, Intellicad? These all have or had TotD. I would suggest however that TotD is more commonly associated with online help, support websites, betting sites, health, product, wellbeing websites rather than "on-startup" widgets these days. A simple google search for "tip of the day" shows that. ClubOranjeT 23:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

"Talkquote" template not working

Can someone explain why the markup on this sandbox page is not working? It does not render at all, so you will have to look at the page's source. Thanks! SharkD  Talk  23:53, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

values assigned to positional parameters must not contain an equal sign.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:04, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
You need |1= when the first unnamed parameter contains an equals sign (|text= would also work for this template). Otherwise it's interpreted as assigning the right hand sign of the equals sign to a parameter with the name on the left side. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Firefox on XP

I am not sure where I should post it so I post it here. From my understanding, IE on XP will no longer be able to connect to Wikimedia sites soon.

My parents are using Firefox with latest patch on their XP system - old computer, so stuck there. However, Wikimedia server erroneously detects the browser as IE and refuses connection. Is there anyone can help in this? Thanks. SYSS Mouse (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

@SYSS Mouse: Which exact version of Firefox is used on that machine? (For context: "Changes later this week" on meta:Tech/News/2017/42.) --Malyacko (talk) 06:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
SYSS Mouse, your problem isn't what you think it is. You problem is in the words "old computer, so stuck there" A computer that runs Windows 10 will cost you less than $100 including shipping. See [ ].
Seriously, running XP is a terrible idea. Support for Windows XP ended April 8, 2014. Microsoft no longer provides security updates for the Windows XP operating system. Antivirus programs ignore malware that only runs on XP. More and more applications and websites simply do not run on Windows XP or the old browsers that run in XP. It is only going to get worse. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikilink font colors

According to MW:Help:Extension:Linter/obsolete-tag, The deprecated tag <font color=x size=y face=z> should be replaced by <span style="color: x; font-size: y; font-family: z;">. True! But there's a strange difference in the behavior of <font color=x>[[Wikilink]]</font> and <span style="color: x;>[[Wikilink]]</span>. Look at these examples:

  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green

Viewing the source, we see that the examples with <font> insert font code inside the href, viz:

  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font> converts to <a href="/wiki/Green" title="Green"><font color="green">Green</font></a>, but
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span> converts to <span style="color: green;"><a href="/wiki/Green" title="Green">Green</a></span>

Why are these methods of markup not treated identically? How should editors deal with this discrepancy when trying to de-lint articles laden with <font> tags?—Anomalocaris (talk) 05:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

If you use the proper Hex value for Green and stop trying to use Wikilinks in your examples they are identical. Also, your fourth example tries to close a <span> with a </font>.
Result with plain text:
  • <font color="green">Green</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">Green</span>: Green
  • <font color="#008000">Green</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #008000;">Green</span>: Green

But what about the wikilinks?

Result with red Wikilink:
  • <font color="red">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <span style="color: red;">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <font color="#FF0000">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a red Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">This contains a [[red]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a red Wikilink
Result with green Wikilink:
  • <font color="green">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <span style="color: green;">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <font color="#008000">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a green Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #008000;">This contains a [[green]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a green Wikilink
Result with blue Wikilink:
  • <font color="blue">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <span style="color: blue;">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <font color="#0000FF">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a blue Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">This contains a [[blue]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a blue Wikilink
Result with uncolored Wikilink:
  • This contains a [[color|uncolored]] Wikilink: This contains a uncolored Wikilink

Result with red Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="red">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: red;">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <font color="#FF0000">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">This contains a [[XredX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XredX Wikilink
Result with green Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="green">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: green;">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <font color="#008000">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #008000;">This contains a [[XgreenX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XgreenX Wikilink
Result with blue Redlink Wikilink:
  • <font color="blue">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: blue;">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <font color="#0000FF">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</font>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">This contains a [[XblueX]] Wikilink</span>: This contains a XblueX Wikilink
Result with uncolored Redlink Wikilink:
  • This contains a [[XuncoloredX]] Wikilink: This contains a XuncoloredX Wikilink

Conclusion: both text and wikilinks act the same whether you color them with font or span. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:02, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Guy Macon: I fixed the fourth example above where I closed a <span> with a </font>.
The two methods of markup, which should be identical, are identical when the modified text includes no wikilink at all, or more than a wikilink. When it consists of a wikilink, no more and no less, the two methods of markup diverge:
  • <font color="green">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00">[[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;">[[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="green"> [[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: green;"> [[Green]]</span>: Green
  • <font color="#00FF00"> [[Green]]</font>: Green
  • <span style="color: #00FF00;"> [[Green]]</span>: Green
Thank you for your efforts so far. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Same as above, but with just the Wikilinks (no leading and trailing text):
Result with red:
  • <font color="red">[[red]]</font>: red
  • <span style="color: red;">[[red]]</span>: red
  • <font color="#FF0000">[[red]]</font>: red
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">[[red]]</span>: red
Result with green:
  • <font color="green">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <span style="color: green;">[[green]]</span>: green
  • <font color="#008000">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <span style="color: #008000;">[[green]]</span>: green
Result with blue:
  • <font color="blue">[[blue]]</font>: blue
  • <span style="color: blue;">[[blue]]</span>: blue
  • <font color="#0000FF">[[blue]]</font>: blue
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">[[blue]]</span>: blue
Result with uncolored:

Result with red Redlink:
  • <font color="red">[[XredX]]</font>: XredX
  • <span style="color: red;">[[XredX]]</span>: XredX
  • <font color="#FF0000">[[XredX]]</font>: XredX
  • <span style="color: #FF0000;">[[XredX]]</span>: XredX
Result with green Redlink:
  • <font color="green">[[XgreenX]]</font>: XgreenX
  • <span style="color: green;">[[XgreenX]]</span>: XgreenX
  • <font color="#008000">[[XgreenX]]</font>: XgreenX
  • <span style="color: #008000;">[[XgreenX]]</span>: XgreenX
Result with blue Redlink:
  • <font color="blue">[[XblueX]]</font>: XblueX
  • <span style="color: blue;">[[XblueX]]</span>: XblueX
  • <font color="#0000FF">[[XblueX]]</font>: XblueX
  • <span style="color: #0000FF;">[[XblueX]]</span>: XblueX
Result with uncolored Redlink:
New conclusion: I was wrong before. In the specific case of a Wikilink with no surrounding text, they are different!
One final test:
  • <font color="green">[[green]]</font>: green
  • <font color="green"> [[green] ]</font>: green
  • <font color="green">Foo [[green]]</font>: Foo green
  • <font color="green">[[green]] Bar</font>: green Bar
So any surrounding text, even spaces, will fix the problem.
This looks like a bug in the code. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I suspect what you are seeing here is caused by the legacy Tidy system rewriting <font>...</font> tags to lie inside <a>...</a> (link) tags, while not doing the same for <span>...</span> tags in the same context. These sorts of anachronistic inconsistencies are among the reasons why Tidy is going to eventually be removed and replaced with a more modern solution. The Linter tool gives users an opportunity to find and fix instances of these nasty old Tidy behaviours. — This, that and the other (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @This, that and the other: Some templates, like {{S-line}}, rely on this behaviour to colour links. Should the font tag here be replaced with a template/Lua module that colours links? Jc86035 (talk) 09:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
A template that colors Wikilinks breaks the bluelink/redlink behavior that users expect. We shouldn't have templates that do that. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:41, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Then complain or make an edit request at Template talk:S-line; note that this is only done for some Australian railway lines (see e.g. Roma Street railway station) and I agree it would be best to remove the custom styling entirely. Jc86035 (talk) 09:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
If coloring of links is really necessary (for example, to achieve white link text on a dark background) you can use [[target|<span style="color: #0088FF;">text</span>]]: textThis, that and the other (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@This, that and the other: On another note, there are 14,350 templates which use an opening or closing <font> tag. A Lua module adding the <span>...</span> might be necessary to replicate the colouring-of-links behaviour in case the links are on blue backgrounds and wouldn't be visible without the coloration or something. Jc86035 (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
In addition, there are some contributors who haven't updated their signatures in years, so the signature leaves font tags everywhere. Leaving aside existing uses which can be bot-corrected, does the software allow the signature definitions to be forcibly fixed or does this have to be changed manually by each of the editors in their preferences? Jc86035 (talk) 10:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
@Guy Macon: Discussion started at WT:TRAINS#Sydney styling in Template:S-line. Jc86035 (talk) 10:49, 23 October 2017 (UTC)


  • I discovered this while fixing lint errors on talk pages.
  • I assume that most uses of <font> to alter Wikilink colors occur in user signatures on talk pages.
  • I believe that in article space, Wikilink colors should never be overridden, and any templates that do this should be modified.
  • I believe that this nonstandard behavior of <font color=...>[[Wikilink]]</font> should be removed.
  • If it is to be removed, Wikipedians should be notified, especially those whose signatures rely on this nonstandard behavior.
  • I don't think it's a great loss to have existing signatures on a plethora of talk pages appear in the default link colors even if the author intended a different color.
  • That said, if someone wants to create a tool that facilitates users having their past postings on talk pages edited to move font coloring (preferably expressed using <span style=...> markup) into the wikilink, that is OK.
  • Regardless of whether anything is done about this, all users using <font> in their signatures should be informed that this code is non-compliant with HTML5 and may cause problems later, and they should change their signature to <span style=...> markup.

Anomalocaris (talk) 11:05, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

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