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November 12

Etymology of the word 'male'

The wiki pages under the heading 'female' include an etymological subsection. Why is this not included in the wiki paages under the heading 'male'?Bromgf (talk) 08:06, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I guess nobody's gotten around to writing it? I see an unresolved request for this info on Talk:Male from a decade ago also. Check wikt:male and [1] for possible info to include. Why not give it a go yourself? DMacks (talk) 08:26, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Why would it be notable? For "female", it's notable because it's interesting that it's not derived from "male". The reverse does not apply. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 11:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Bromgf: This isn't a science question, and unless you're still unclear on something about the etymology it's not even a language question. Please consider moving or removing this section. Wnt (talk) 11:53, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Derived via Old French from the Latin 'masculus' and 'femilla'.[2][3]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:14, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I have moved this topic from the Science Refdesk. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The bottom line is that this is a folk etymology, a respelling made in ignorance of the diachronic facts.

Male and female have totally separate etymologies, as BB has alluded to; mās and femina; and fe-male is simply a respellling/reanalysis of the French reflex femelle based on modern naivete. The roots are unrelated, with mās meaning "manly" and dhe- -> fe- meaning "suckle" as in fetus and fellatio. μηδείς (talk) 14:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Isn't the French reflex se, the same as or very similar to other Romance languages? The Oxford English Dictionary says that femelle is a diminutive of femme. It also says the root *fe- means "to produce offspring". Its derivation of "fellatio" is as quoted above. 82.13.208.70 (talk) 13:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
I believe μηδείς is using reflex in the technical sense, referring to a word that is a "known derivative of an earlier form", while you're referring to reflexive pronoun. 2.97.236.64 (talk) 23:12, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Aha! No wonder I couldn't figure out where in the world the Western Romance pronoun was coming from! Yes. IP 2.97 is correct as to my meaning. μηδείς (talk) 05:41, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

To use sth as sth

Do I need to use an indefinite article for this collocation, e. g. in a phrase like "As a browser, I use..." or can I also leave out the "a" here? If so, would that be an informal thing then?--Herfrid (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Are you talking about "browser" as computer software, or are you talking about yourself browsing? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
  • You certainly cannot omit the article in that expression, whether "browser" means the person or the program. If you want better advice, provide a full sentence in the context of a full paragraph. Other considerations come into play when the full context is revealed. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
"I use safari as my browser."
"I use safari as a browser."
"I use safari as browser."
Hmmm, I am not sure, but yes I think a teacher would strike the last one as ungrammatical. --Lgriot (talk) 12:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the third option is ungrammatical on its own. μηδείς (talk) 05:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Firstly, to clarify that: I was referring to "browser" as a program! @Lgriot and Medeis: But, in comparison, what about the expression "as employer" for instance?--Herfrid (talk) 15:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Articles are often left out of headlines. For a normal sentence, either of your first two examples works, depending on whether you use just one browser or several. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 16:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
BB is correct, and there's the added fact that "Safari" is a concrete noun, while "government" is abstract. The title of that book even in headlinese would be "Browsers as Programs", not "Browser as Program". μηδείς (talk) 16:54, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

November 13

Myanmar character

What is the ဵ character? My screen displays the little box indicating that I don't have the right character set. Google tells me that it's "MYANMAR VOWEL SIGN E ABOVE", but I don't know if this is a Latin E with a diacritical mark used primarily in Myanmar, or an E-equivalent character in Burmese, or something else. Nyttend backup (talk) 13:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

There is an article on the Burmese alphabet which shows a sympol like that in the list of diacritic signs - and then says "Changes inherent vowel to /i/" It certainly won't be any form of Latin E, as the Burmese language does not use the Latin letters. Wymspen (talk) 14:19, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Okay, so it's a Burmese character. This is why we redirect characters to alphabet articles; little boxes are useless for identification, but a redirect to the alphabet tells me that it's a part of the alphabet. For all I knew, it was used when writing English in Myanmar, but not used when writing English anywhere else. Thank you! Nyttend backup (talk) 14:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
That's not the right character. The one Wymspen refers to is U+102E (ီ), the one you asked about was U+1035. They are visually similar - U+1035 has a open side on the right, where U+102E is closed.
The answer is similar - it's a vowel diacritic used in the Burmese script - but in this case not in the Burmese language itself. The character table at Wikipedia:Font on the Burmese Wikipedia indicates that it is used in the Mon language.
Part of the reason for the confusion with the text in Unicode may be the fact that Myanmar is intended not just as the name of the country, but also the name of the majority language and the script in which that language is written. When it says "MYANMAR VOWEL SIGN E ABOVE" it's referring to the Myanmar script, not the country called Myanmar.
Also worth mentioning that this is one of the less well-adopted parts of the Unicode standard. Most people in Myanmar - including on the web - use non-Unicode fonts such as Zawgyi that use the same code points but put different characters in each place. Looks like Zawgyi doesn't actually use U+1035 but in the general case you may find that what is intended is actually something completely different from what Unicode says you should see. Kahastok talk 21:22, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

W sound in Greek

Does anyone know the reason the w sound disappeared from Greek?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, the letter for the PIE reflex of /w/ in Greek was digamma, Ϝ, which dropped out of most dialects rather early, although it's common in the archaic, pre-Homeric Mycenaean Greek. The problem with such explanations is that we often have historically attested series like f > h > 0 in the development of Castilian from Latin. But there's a hiatus between Mycenaean Greek and post-Homeric greek where there are no attested texts and the Alphabet is entirely replaced. So the relevant data is speculative. μηδείς (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
You can never really give reasons for language change, Georgia guy; all you can do is notice that some changes are more likely (happen more often) than others. Mηδείς has given one example of a labial disappearing, but this also happened regularly in both Celtic (/p/ -> nothing; eg Welsh adar 'birds' is cognate with Greek pteros (wing) and feather; and Irish athair 'father' with Latin pater and indeed English father) and also in Japanese (/p/ -> /h/). In fact there is one isolated instance in Welsh of /ʋ/ disappearing: the word mab 'son' appears in patronymic names in the fossilised form ap which appears to have come from map via a form with a /ʋ/. So it appears that labials are rather labile, so perhaps you might expect the weakly pronounced /ʋ/ to be the most labile. --ColinFine (talk) 21:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Reasons and stages or trends are indeed two different things. But ease of production and lack of contrast are often given as causes for phonetic change. That is, if /h/ is easier to produce than /f/, and the language lacks /h/, then such a change doesn't lead to confusion, so it is not prevented by an increase in semantic confusion. The direct and unconditioned change from /w/ to /0/ is highly unusual. Some dialects of English have hwa > hu > u for "Oo's 'at at te door, luv?" in the development of the standard word "who". But the historical development of PIE /kw/ to /hw/ to /ʍ/ or /h/ before rounded vowels to /0/ is much better attested and explained. Presumably there were intermediate stages in Greek as well; they are just not attested as far as I am aware. μηδείς (talk) 21:52, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
BTW, athair is derived from the reconstructed ɸatīr, so p > 0 is not assumed, and the same development is presumed in Japanese, where p > ɸ (> h | i) is assumed, and ɸ is still found in the Ryukyuan languages in conservative forms. In the Rusyn language, PIE w > w/v/f depending on context, but the /f/ has not progressesd to /h/ or /0/, given /h/ is not an allophone or dialectal variant of /g/ as it is in Great Russian, but a phoneme in its own right. μηδείς (talk) 05:34, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

November 15

Portuguese name order

Is there some reason the article is titled Getúlio Fredo, when the name is written Fredo Getulio Aurelio on the first line of the article? Clarityfiend (talk) 11:55, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Because he goes by that name? Brazillian soccer players are well known to go by professional names which are not identical to their birth names; it's a fairly well-established tradition in that sport, and there are hundreds of examples. The name is chosen by the player for its own aesthetic reasons, sometimes it's their first name, sometimes their last, and sometimes neither. This article describes the naming traditions of Brazillian soccer. --Jayron32 13:38, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
It does look like it. See [4]. However the name on his passport is Fredo Getúlio Aurelio. 92.27.49.50 (talk) 14:04, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
The name on Marilyn Monroe's driver's license in the early 1950s was Norma Jean DiMaggio, but her article is listed under her stage name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:00, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a policy on this, WP:COMMONNAME which dictates that articles should be created with the subject's commonly referred name which may differ from their given name. Its why the article is Ronaldinho and not Ronaldo de Assis Moreira. Or Bill Clinton and not William Jefferson Clinton. uhhlive (talk) 20:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Clarityfiend, see Portuguese name#São Paulo State area; at least in São Paulo, it's common to have a Portuguese first given name, a foreign second given name (which "Getúlio" apparently is, judging by his article's hatnote), and then two family names. As he's coached in Estonia and qualified for a Finnish passport, I suppose that it's possible that he dropped one of his family names, or if he indeed has a foreign background, maybe his immediate ancestors didn't bother using multiple family names in the first place. Nyttend (talk) 03:20, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Getúlio is an indigenous Portuguese name (example, another Brazilian footballer, Getúlio Vargas de Oliveira Júnior, known as Getúlio Vargas). The article was originally titled Fredo Getulio Aurelio. It was then moved (per WP:COMMONNAME) to Getulio. A few days later the move was reversed. A few months later it was moved to Getulio Aurelio. A few months after that the original title was restored. A few days later it was changed to Fredo Getulio. The present version was introduced six years later. 82.13.208.70 (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the pointer to Vargas; I'd already thought of him, but without looking I figured that the president's parents might have been immigrants who picked a foreign name for their son. Nyttend (talk) 12:29, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
His full name is Getúlio Vargas Freitas de Oliveira Júnior and he was born on 22 January 1983. The president at that time was João Figueiredo. Getúlio Dornelles Vargas was a dictator who died in 1954 by his own hand (I never heard of him before today). His parents were Cândida Francisca Dornelles Vargas and Nascimento Vargas. His son Manuel Antônio Sarmanho Vargas died the same way in 1997 and his son Getúlio Dornelles Vargas Neto similarly on 17 July this year.[5] 82.13.208.70 (talk) 16:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

November 16

Name for pin

Wat is the correct word for this kind of pin: advertising pin, advertisement pin, marketing pin ? Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 05:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Lapel pin. Rojomoke (talk) 06:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
There are an awful lot of "see also"s on that article, not including badge, which is also used in British English. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't see a size of that object, so it could be a lapel pin, or it could be a badge. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:21, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The image file labels it as an "advertising pin" of a Dutch company. Having no image of the back it is difficult to confirm if it is a type of lapel pin, or some other sort of clip or badge. It might have been issued to advertise the company - but even that cannot be certain (it could have been some sort of award for service). Wymspen (talk) 15:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
I would call it an advertising pin or a promotion pin. —Stephen (talk) 17:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Chinese translation

Here. Please, transcribe and translate.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:53, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

It is a bit difficult to read, but this is the poem "八阵图" by Du Fu, a Tang dynasty poet. In Western reading order:
功盖三分国
名成八阵图
江流石不转
遗恨失吞吴
There is a translation here (look for "The Eight-sided Fortress"). —Kusma (t·c) 21:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
This is maybe a better link (and has traditional characters like the original text probably has, and the same reading order). —Kusma (t·c) 21:05, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, you are of great help. Don't you know if it may have some other, apart from its literal, meaning? Like in fengshui? Why may a ceramic plate be decorated with it?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't know about another meaning (and I know basically nothing about Classical Chinese). The subject of the poem is Zhuge Liang, see e.g. Baidu Baike. —Kusma (t·c) 20:03, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
An interpretation of the poem is at Poem: the Eight-sided Fortress唐诗《八阵图》: "This poem is a glorification of Zhuge Liang’s remarkable achievement, and also shows the poet's regret about Liu Bei's failure because he unwisely turned a deaf ear to Zhuge Liang’s strategy of allying with Wu against Wei". I'm still none the wiser though. Alansplodge (talk) 20:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
This page (if I'm reading it correctly) says that the poem was "formerly used in divination". Perhaps something to do with I Ching? Alansplodge (talk) 20:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I read that as "八陣圖 can also be translated The Eight Diagrams", which are those of the I Ching. As another little information tidbit: the form of poetry is called Jueju. —Kusma (t·c) 21:47, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Okay, that makes more sense. Alansplodge (talk) 09:38, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't think anyone's linked to this yet: we have an article on this at Stone Sentinel Maze. It doesn't make much sense, but neither does the original myth. 197.201.4.179 (talk) 12:13, 18 November 2017 (UTC) (Henry Flower)
The poem is actually cited in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Chapter 84 (thank you Henry Flower for the link). See s:zh:三國演義/第084回. For another translation (by Charles H. Brewitt-Taylor), see wikia:threekingdoms:Romance of the Three Kingdoms/chapter 084. —Kusma (t·c) 19:21, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Yet another translation (in Moss Roberts' translation of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Foreign Languages Press, Beijing 1994):

Deeds to vault a thrice-torm realm.
Fame at peak with the Eightfold Maze,
Now steadfast stones in the river's run –
Monument to his rue
That his king had choked on Wu!

Still no answer on why it is on a plate, though. —Kusma (t·c) 19:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Which are universal linguistic sounds?

I am not sure whether mmm would be classified as a universal linguistic sound or a sound that can be produced by every single human. Is there a sound that every human can pronounce with little difficulty? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 20:58, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Laughter, for one. The expression "ha-ha" means the same thing in Chinese as it does in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:01, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Also, "ma" or some close variation is among the first sounds made by babies around the world, hence its close association with "mother" in so many languages. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:02, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
I googled "human universal sounds" and this is one item that came up, though it may not be precisely what you're looking for. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
The article is indeed about a relevant and potentially interesting scientific study, but the journalist seems to have inserted some ill-informed and linguistically naïve ideas of her own. Consider the opening two sentences:
"Even though you’re not fluent in different languages, you may be able to recognise words in others. In German for water is ‘wasser’, in Dutch it's 'water' and in Serbian ‘voda’.
Well of course those words resemble each other – English, German, Dutch and Sebian are all Indo-European languages, so all four words are descended from the original same word in Proto-Indo European (reconstructed as "*wódr̥"). This is not at all relevant to the phenomenon that the scientific study itself is concerned with. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.0.37.45 (talk) 03:11, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a table here [6] listing all phonemes, and indicating (in the second column) what percentage of the languages included use that particular sound. The most common (m) is only found in 95% of languages, so there are none which are common to every human language. Wymspen (talk) 21:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
That answers my question. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 22:14, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
@Wymspen: thanks for that link, a very useful reference indeed, but I don't think it definitively answers the OP's question since the OP asked about "sounds" and the table only list phonemes which means it doesn't show sounds (phones) that may occur but aren't considered phonemes such as allophones. For example, in that table Japanese isn't included in the 95% under "m" because /m/ isn't an phoneme in Japanese; but [m] does appear regularly and often as allophone of /n/ (Japanese phonology#Moraic nasal). Still, I don't think 100% of every language that has existed has [m], but the figure is probably closer to 100 than 95.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 22:25, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
How does it not definitively answer the OP's question when the OP states, in a definitive way "That answers my question". It may not have answered your concerns, but you are not the OP. If the OP indicates that they are satisfied with the response, who are YOU to say that the OP is not satisfied? The OP gets to decide for themselves how they feel. You don't get to enforce your feelings on them. --Jayron32 15:08, 17 November 2017 (UTC) Striking my comment here. It was entirely uncalled for. I apologize to WilliamThweatt for this unjustified attack. --Jayron32 15:56, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
WilliamThweatt -- I'm pretty sure /m/ is a phoneme of Japanese: there's a whole row for it in the syllabaries, it appears twice in the famous mantra Namu Myoho Renge Kyo, once in the name of the founder of Sony (Akio Morita), etc. AnonMoos (talk) 22:37, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Ugh. Of course, you are correct. Thanks for that. I've recently been writing about final nasals in Austroasiatic languages and must be obsessing stuck thinking about finals (in which position [m] is in fact an allophone of /n/ in Japanese). I have struck my "example" above, but the point remains; the table seems only to list phonemes and excludes non-phonemic allophones.--William Thweatt TalkContribs 00:01, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I thank you too. The link you've supplied is quite interesting. I haven't been aware of its existence, so far. I think the most interesting phoneme is the consonant /ŋmkpɾ/, found in Tigon Mbembe language (spoken in Cameroon). Here is another insight I got from the link: The maximal quantity of vowels shared (as phonemes) by most languages is five, being (per frequency): /i/,/a/,/u/,/o/,/e/; Whereas the maximal quantity of consonants shared (as phonemes) by most languages is fourteen, being (per frequency): /m/,/k/,/j/,/p/,/w/,/n/,/s/,/t/,/b/,/l/,/h/,/g/,/ŋ/,/d/. HOTmag (talk) 22:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
[citation needed] for The sequence /ŋmkpɾ/, User:HOTmag. If the m and r are syllabic, I can pronounce that with not much effort, and /kp/ is a common cluster in many African languages, as are nasal sequences, and initial /ŋ/. See ITN Emmerson Mnangagwa. The Georgian language has six-consonant clusters, and [ŋkθs] is not unattested. μηδείς (talk) 00:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
See here, and also the 1441-st phoneme - here. Not /r/ (as you wrote it apart) - but rather /ɾ/ (as it is in the whole phoneme you correctly copied), and not a consonant cluster - but rather a phoneme, and that's why it's so interesting. HOTmag (talk) 04:55, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I saw and know the difference between r and the flap, but since I wasn't using brackets to mention the broad phones (you were not confused), didn't feel it worth the effort to open the box. I'll read your sources. μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

140.254.70.33 -- I'm not sure that there's a linguistic sound which is included in absolutely every human language, but basically every language includes CV syllables as part of its phonotactics, where the possible consonants ("C") are almost certain to include several of [p], [t], [k], [m], [n], [s], while the possible vowels ("V") are very likely to include several of [a], [e], [i], [o], [u] (where the symbols enclosed between brackets [...] are "broad" IPA transcriptions). AnonMoos (talk) 22:22, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I'll still need to see a much better source than these two lists, User:HOTmag, to accept blithely that /ŋmkpɾ/ is a five-segmented unitary phoneme. Does the source language not have /kp/, /gb/, prenasalized stops, or a separate /ɾ/? This seems to be nothing more than a cluster of segmentally prenasalized /kp/ followed by /ɾ/. Id like to see a full workup of the language, along with some sort of diachronic analysis, not just that the segment is attested in a list. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

November 17

"graveyard cashier"

When someone works as "graveyard cashier" in a Shell tank station, what does this person do? How is that different from other cashier jobs?--31.4.137.179 (talk) 02:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

A graveyard cashier is a cashier that works the graveyard shift—i.e., overnight. Typically, there will be day shift, swing shift, and graveyard shift, but that will vary by workplace. Less colorfully, they may be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shift. - Nunh-huh 02:42, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
You get robbed more often. --Jayron32 12:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Please see graveyard shift and Shell Oil Company. Bus stop (talk) 14:10, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

What's a "tank station"? Is that another name for what I call a gas station? --69.159.60.147 (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be a non-English term, as with File:BP Tankstation.jpg in the Netherlands. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:36, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Tanks! (Sorry!) --69.159.60.147 (talk) 23:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

November 18

Tintin's (Traditional) Fonts

From where I can download those traditional Tintin fonts, please ? 124.253.253.208 (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Just type 'tintin font' and you'll find several options. --B8-tome (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2017 (UTC)


November 19

Decrypting newly found languages

After a first contact with humans whose language does not resemble ours, like new world folks, or isolated African tribes, how can it be established what words mean what concept? We could draw an animal or point to a tree, but what about more abstract concepts like "hope', "liberty", "fair"? -- 20:47, 18 November 2017 B8-tome

The word "decryption" usually refers to trying to understand fixed written texts. Trying to learn a spoken language is quite different. Presumably discussing abstract matters would require greater language fluency than learning the names of physical objects in the vicinity... AnonMoos (talk) 03:52, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
I can't answer the question but we have Uncontacted peoples and First contact (anthropology). And this makes brief reference to language as concerns "uncontacted tribes". Bus stop (talk) 04:27, 19 November 2017 (UTC) Bus stop (talk) 04:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
This may be OR, but logically it is probably the case that as context and familiarity with the language increases, the ability to infer the meaning/presence of such abstract notions may become easier. Purely as a thought experiment, if there's some Aesop-like story about two animals and one of them is cheating or something along those lines, one may be able to deduce from this context the words for "fair" or "unfair," etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.48.37 (talk) 05:54, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Luckily for European explorers, European languages such as English, French, and Spanish are easy to learn. In the Americas, the usual process was that a Native American linguist would learn to speak the explorers' language (as the Aztecs and Incas did by learning Spanish), and then the Native American linguists would tell us the meanings of their words (for example, La Malinche, the Nahua woman who served as interpreter for the Spanish Conquistadores). Soon after, Catholic (usually) missionaries would arrive to convert the natives and would begin learning the native language. Once they learned the native languages, they would create word lists, vocabularies. These lists eventually became very important as the native languages began to die out. Sometimes the orthography that the priests used was not sufficient, as in the case of An Ethnologic Dictionary of the Navaho Language by the Franciscan Fathers. Many of the words in the dictionary cannot be understood by modern speakers of Navajo, because the orthography was too blurry. Nevertheless, it's an important work and still useful. —Stephen (talk) 08:31, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Same question asked at 58:20, not really answered. Шурбур (talk) 09:29, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Articles and Latin Speakers

Given that Latin had no real article while Greek had definite and/or indefinite articles, is there evidence that Greek written by non-native Greek Romans displayed faulty or missing articles? (Perhaps like some native Slavic speakers when using English, etc.) A bit of an obscure question perhaps (but aren't those the best ones?) --216.15.48.37 (talk) 01:52, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Classical Greek had only a definite article (ὁ, ἡ, το). (At the earlier historical stage of Epic Greek, this word was more of a light demonstrative than a true article.) AnonMoos (talk) 03:43, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

A hard one... ["This is nothing of which I would say I am proud of"]

(after precipitate auto-archiving) @Trovatore: Now, to recapitulate: Are we speaking in terms of style or grammar here? This is not something about which I would say I am proud of — is that grammatically (!) wrong or not?--Herfrid (talk) 14:49, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

"This is not something about which I would say I am proud" or "this is not something which I would say I am proud about" - with the first being the pedantically correct form avoiding the preposition at the end of the phrase. You can not add an "of" at the end - in this case you are saying that you are not proud about something, rather than that you are not proud of something. Adding the "of" when you have already used the preposition "about" is a grammatical error. You could say that you are proud of it, or proud about it - but never that you are proud about of it (or proud of about it). You can use of, or about, but not both together. Wymspen (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
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