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August 9

Pipe smoking ... a candle?

In this image (a fragment of a screenshot of M (1931 film)) we see a German gentleman, using a smoking pipe. The other men at the same social gathering are smoking too, but they are using fairly ordinary tobacco pipes or cigars. But this man, rather than having conventional tobacco packed into the bowl of his pipe, appears to have a candle-like pellet (at least 2 inches long) protruding from the bowl of his (apparently conventional) pipe. It might not be evident from the still picture, but moving we see that the "candle" itself is smouldering (it doesn't appear to be a hollow pipe extension). The man draws from it as one would do an ordinary tobacco pipe. Perhaps a little comically, he looks like a Räuchermann toy (who really do "smoke" scented pellets). I'm guessing that the "candle" is some form of compressed tobacco (perhaps with spices or aromatics for flavour). What is the name of this kind of candle thing, and what (other, presumably, than tobacco) might it typically contain? (talk) 10:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

It might simply be a cigar stuck in the pipe. Google Image "cigar in pipe" and you'll see several examples. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.-- (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Historical person with name in mixed alphabets

Has there ever been a person bearing a name (be it a stage name) with letters from at least two different alphabets (Latin, Greek, Cyrillic etc.; not counting the same alphabet incorporating letters from different roots as e.g. Icelandic Árni Þór Sigurðsson)? --KnightMove (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

This mentions something similar may happen with some Japanese names, for any given definition of "name" and "alphabet". --Jayron32 12:40, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
It's fairly common for Malaysian Chinese to have a Chinese name including their surname and an English name and these may be given by their parents and on official documents etc. While the Chinese name is generally romanised including on official documents, the name in Chinese characters is arguably the original form of the name. However the original form of the English name is also likely to be considered the latin alphabet form and in fact I think is frequently not transliterated even when used in Chinese publications in Malaysia e.g. [1]. Of course Chinese characters aren't what is generally considered an alphabet. You get similar things with Singaporean names. Nil Einne (talk) 14:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
For the initial question, I think KnightMove outlined the paradox himself. There are many examples of alphabets borrowing letters from other alphabets, but a name including letters from different alphabets is not considered as consisting of 2 or more scripts. You also have other examples, such as the use of "J" in Yugoslav Cyrillic alphabets. Modern stage names is of course a whole other issue, I suppose there would be some examples. --Soman (talk) 09:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Would you count Jennifer 8. Lee which combines Latin alphabetic letters with an Arabic numeral? (talk) 16:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

There was also a musician known at one time as "image:Prince_logo.svg". (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

And if he'd gone by "image:Prince_logo.svg Nelson", then it would be what the original poster asked for (provided that "image:Prince_logo.svg" was accepted as being from "an alphabet"). But he didn't. -- (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

August 10

Does GDPR affect US companies that happen to have EU customers or even just visitors to their website?

This article is a bit confusing:

"or if it monitors the behaviour of individuals within the EEA (for example via cookies)"

When the company is 100% American, why should a cruiseline obey to European law when someone from the EEA happens to visit their site? What if Vietnam decides to tax $1 per cookie placed when a resident from Vietnam visits the site? Joepnl (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

In answer to your headline question, yes. It's the reason I can't access the LA Times any more. The theory is that websites offering services to EU citizens have to abide by EU privacy standards, since, in a sense, by serving content to people in the EU they're on EU turf. They can of course choose not to operate there. You might compare it to Google's reported work to produce a service China will accept. Or you might wonder what would happen if the US started restricting 1st Amendment rights to individuals, and EU sites serving US customers were no longer allowed to censor their content. Probably a bigger topic than the reference desk can help with, but there it is Face-smile.svg › Mortee talk 01:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
To try answer the specific question: "What if Vietnam decides to tax $1 per cookie placed when a resident from Vietnam visits the site?" Most likely, all sites for which this arrangement would make them loose money, would make sure they stop being available to any IP address from Vietnam, or, they would make a Vietnam version that doesn't use cookies. This is speculation, but I suspect it would significantly reduce the Vietnamese people's access to the internet.
Some sites might ignore the law altogether, if they have 0 assets in Vietnam that can be seized, but its senior management could get arrested for tax evasion next time they visit Vietnam. Also Vietnam could issue an international arrest warrant (in cases there are other countries that have an bi-lateral agreements with Vietnam to arrest people who break Vietnamese law) for the senior managers of the company owning the sites that refuse to pay the tax. --Lgriot (talk) 13:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
To be sure, I used "Vietnam" as a country of which I know nothing, it could be any country that has laws different from what I'm used to. For instance, I could make a website that makes fun of a dictator of country X. Of course, when I'd visit X they can do something about it, but I'm still not sure why for instance the LA Times thinks it should follow rules made by the EU. Which judge would tell the LA Times to stop giving access? US judges can't be expected to understand each and every law in the world, and IMHO, they are not even supposed to. Joepnl (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
We understood that you were just giving a random example, and my answer was going along with it, for the sake of consistency. The principle still applies, it doesn't matter the country: the management of the LA times don't want to break EU law, not because a US judge would tell them off (US judges do not have jurisdiction), but because an EU judge could, and a vacation in Europe is nice thing that one might want to do one day. Giving the finger at EU law is not a great idea, especially if the revenue from Europe is negligible anyway (I can't imagine they are making a ton of money from ads on their site that are visible from Europe, let's face it the LA times readership is mostly American). Better avoid any legal issue now at little cost than having to hire lawyers in a foreign country later. --Lgriot (talk) 14:21, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Dmitry Sklyarov found out to the hard way the tricky issues surrounding jurisdictional issues when visiting foreign countries. (In case you're lazy to read the article, this is an example as is all my examples of someone who was arrested in the US even though they lived in and their work that results in the allegations occurred outside the US.)

And Fat Leonard found out the hard way that the US may even lure you to them. Although the wacky war ship idea was abandoned and it doesn't take a genius to know bribing US officials is not going to be popular with their government [2]. (His case is also interesting because there was a reasonable prospect of extradition, but it was likely to be a mess given his connections and wealth, as the Kim Dotcom saga has somewhat shown.)

But other cases like this one [3] [4] show that the US government doesn't only lure people to some part of the US in bribery cases. While some of the sources make a big deal over 'national security' issues and 'stealing' it isn't impossible that the person involved had little direct contact with US entities and that all the software was copied from outside the US. I strongly suspect that the US doesn't care about whether the person actually had any real direct dealings with US entities, their primary concern is that the rights of the US software companies are allegedly being violated and even if all those violations are outside the US. (Although they'd probably find whatever evidence they can of US connections to bolster their case.) Perhaps most significantly, I think there's a good chance Systems Tool Kit as it's now called is still widely available and used even in places like North Korea and Iran.

Note in the LA Times example, issues for management or the papers own staff aside, major news papers even ones with a local focus often have to cooperate with foreign news agencies and correspondents. Governments can make this difficult if they want to. There is a reason why the US sanctions on Iran (or for that matter Cuba) are so significant despite there being many big non US companies.

Nil Einne (talk) 05:56, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

BTW based on these sources, the owner of LA Times hasn't commented whether they intend to comply or block indefinitely. Or major publishers only Lee Enterprises have said they have no plans [5] [6]. Nil Einne (talk) 05:41, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Identity of photographer

Can anyone with a good eye with cursive handwriting tell me who the photographer of this photo? The photographer would have been working in New York in the 1870s.KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Indications are that the photographer was either Jeremiah Gurney or maybe his son Benjamin Gurney. The Findagrave record for Benjamin has his picture, with that same signature.[7]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
There is this version with an address. Would that help in pinpointing if it is the father or son? KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
That would require some effort to figure out, and even then it could be somewhat of a guess. For what it's worth, the 1880 New York City directory shows Jeremiah as an "artist" and Benjamin as a "photographer". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Looking in in 1874, for Christmas day it mentions Kalakaua and his entourage planning to be "photographed by Gurney", though it doesn't say which one. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:32, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
The 1874 NYC city directory I think has the answer. There's an ad for Benj. Gurney, Artist Photographer, est. 1840, 827 Broadway corner 18th Street, Successor to J. Gurney & Son (late of Fifth Ave.)Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
And the Herald for Mar 22, 1874, has an announcement that J. Gurney & Son has been dissolved and that the firm is being revived under the sole ownership of Benjamin Gurney. Based on what I've found, I conclude that Benjamin Gurney (or potentially someone else in his shop, unnamed) is the author of the photo. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Awesome, thank you for the detailed research. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:03, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

"High King of Scotland"

Hello, I hope I wasn't too bold with this good faith edit. However, to tell the truth, I actually found the title "High King of Scotland" neither in Macbeth, King of Scotland (except for the title of the book High King of Scotland 1040–57 given under "Further reading") nor in the relevant article on styles of the monarchs of Scotland, but only in some pertinent Google Books references. But has the designation "High King of Scotland" officially been used by Scottish monarchs? If so, wouldn't it make sense to add a corresponding paragraph in Style of the monarchs of Scotland? Unfortunately, I don't have approprate references at hand to properly check that issue myself. Hoping for your support--Neufund (talk) 22:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

The only mention I can find of a 'High King of Scotland' is a single use of the phrase in the Dindsenchas, which was penned by one or more Irishmen. It was in reference to a King Ubthaire of Iona, who is actually not listed by Scottish sources as even a myth. The English translation of Chronicle of the Kings of Alba does not use the phrase "High King" anywhere. Like you, I also found lots of links and citations to books that use this phrase, but I can find nothing to suggest that it was ever a contemporary style. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:24, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
You link to Style of the monarchs of Scotland, but that article itself lists three Scottish kings, including Macbeth, who were given the title aird-ri Alban (and variant spellings), i.e. "High King of Scotland", by Irish sources, which it specifies in each case. It also says Malcolm III called himself Malcolmus Dei gratia Scottorum basileus in a charter, and translates basileus as "high king", which is perhaps a little more tendentious. --Antiquary (talk) 08:41, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Stokes translated "aird-ri Alban" as "overking of Scotland". I know his translation is considered outdated, though I also can't find an online version of any more recent translation. And of course I am definitely not an expert in any form of Gaelic, and have no idea if "over" and "high" even have a meaningful difference in this context. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:52, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Nor am I an expert in Gaelic, but ard ri seems to be commonly translated as "high king". "Over king" is a less common translation. --Antiquary (talk) 10:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I translate basileus as king.
Sleigh (talk) 10:17, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
"Basileus (Greek: βασιλεύς) is a Greek term and title that has signified various types of monarchs in history. In the English-speaking world it is perhaps most widely understood to mean "king" or "emperor". The title was used by the Byzantine emperors". Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you everybody so far for commenting! So, I guess I can assume my edit was reasonable, in fact? If not, please feel free to make improvements. Otherwise, what about Style of the monarchs of Scotland? Shouldn't this title be mentioned there? @Antiquary: It says "High King of the Scots", not "High King of Scotland" for Malcolm III there...--Neufund (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Ideally we should use the title that is found in a published expert translation, with a citation to that translation. Someguy1221 (talk) 19:37, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

rephrasing my institution question

I'd like to rephrase my question regarding the Smithsonian Institution and the National Geographic Society. Did they work together on projects about the RMS Titanic and the LZ 129 Hindenburg? Anyone know?2604:2000:7113:9D00:E489:B375:36EB:1AC5 (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

    • They did work on a panama dig. That's all the collaboration I can find. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
    • They both celebrated the Titanic's centennial here. but I don't think that is a project Eddie891 Talk Work 22:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
    • Ok: Brittanica says that "Other expeditions, often cosponsored with the Smithsonian Institution and other organizations, [... include] the exploration of the wreck of the ocean liner Titanic." Not a guarantee, but promising. Eddie891 Talk Work 22:31, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

August 11

On incest and the gentry

Somebody told me that a reason freud’s oedipus deal found traction among influential people was that a lot of people from the higher class and nobility were raised away from their family for the most part, and because of that didn’t develop a distaste for thinking of relatives that way. Has this idea been addressed by academics? Are there examples of incestuous acts or impulses in the letters of people from this demographic in this time period? The one that’s in my database just isn’t coming to mind. Temerarius (talk) 02:36, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

See Genetic sexual attraction and Westermarck effect. Though neither mentions 19th century European gentry, perhaps those articles could be a starting point. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:42, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Dunno about traction among influential people but the idea that Freud himself may have lacked the imprinting is mentioned in our Oedipus complex#Sociocultural criticism article, sourced to Steven Pinker who'd generally be consider an academic albeit to How the mind works rather than an academic paper. It's suggested this may have been one of the reasons why Freud once had an erotic reaction to watching his mother dressing. Nil Einne (talk) 05:00, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Being raised separately was quite common. You might also be interested in fosterage, which I believe survived in Ireland in less formal terms much longer than implied there, and also the way a page was brought up. They all kept good track of who their relatives were though. Dmcq (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Incest in high life is a common theme in the fiction of the 19th century, a fact often now explained by the influence of the supposed affair between Lord Byron and his half-sister Augusta Leigh – a huge scandal. They were not raised together, and met in adulthood almost as strangers. For an example of fictional treatment see the subplot of Lord Glenallan's marriage to his half-sister in Walter Scott's The Antiquary, the novel I usernamed myself after. --Antiquary (talk) 08:59, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
We don't know what the relation between fiction and reality is though. It might be lie detective novels where five people are killed. I wonder if DNA tests can tell if there was incest at some point? Dmcq (talk) 18:19, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Not a scientific answer, but an additional fictional example (suggesting the idea might have been widely familiar) is the 17th-century play 'Tis Pity She's a Whore. {The poster formerly known as} (talk) 18:25, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Nelly Sbton or Nelly Sebton

l would like to know how l can get information on my maternal grandmother who was born in Alexandria, Egypt and was the first female lawyer in Egypt. She was born round about 1772 or 1777. She was Jewish. Her father was Moīse Sbton (Sebton) and her mother was Fortuna Viterbo. She married Anthony (Antonín) Chromovský, who was a musician and came from Czechoslovakia. They had two children, a son named, Serge Jan Chromovský and a daughter named, Sonia Anna Margarita Chromovský. Annemarieditondo379762 (talk) 13:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC) Annemarieditondo379762 (talk) 13:41, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

@Annemarrieditondo379762: the only mention I was able to find online was this site, which you may have already seen. It gives her birthdate as 1895 (1772 does seem too early). There was another Antonín Chromovský who lived in Rožďalovice. His wife was born in 1870 or 1871, but her name was Anna so presumably she's unrelated. According to Wikipedia, the first female lawyer in Egypt was Naima Ilyas al-Ayyubi. I'm sorry I've not been able to help more. If you know where they lived, perhaps you'll be able to find marriage records, or perhaps local papers will have printed obituaries for them. Best of luck, › Mortee talk 16:12, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
@Annemarrieditondo379762: I passed this query on to a non-Wikipedian friend of mine who is a Jewish Geneologist. He has replied as follows (Real World names redacted where not relevant):
Hi T—, has nothing other than the small Di Tondo family tree submitted by Anne Marie Di Tondo herself. On it Nelly CHROMOVSKY nee SEBTON is listed as dying in 1973 in Melbourne, Australia, so a birthdate of 1877 is plausible.
In the 1890s there were about 9,000 Jews living in Al-Iskandariya, a mixture of ancient Mizrachi from the Ottoman Empire and 19th-century Sephardi & Ashkenazi European Jews. (the Mormons) has nothing for Al-Iskandariya apart from a small number of Christian records. however has someone researching the SEPTON family of Al-Iskandariya - but they have been inactive since 2004 and might no longer be alive.
The same applies to Ariel Viterbo of Jerusalem, who is researching VITERBO from Tunis and Italy.
There is nobody researching anything like Chromovský from anywhere: the nearest is someone researching Kramovsky from Hermanivka (Germanovka) near Kiyev - not too far from Sub-Carpathian Ruthenia, the 'tail' of Czechoslovakia. This person is currently active.
Hope this helps. Please feel free to pass it on to Anne Marie Di Tondo and Mortee,
See you on Tuesday,
All the Best,
{The poster formerly known as} (talk) 18:38, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
No advice regarding your grandmother, but my five cents regarding her husband. The surname Chromovský (masculine variant) / Chromovská (for females) seems to be quite rare - there are only 25 people with this surname in the Czech Republic (12 males [8] and 13 females [9]. Despite its low occurence it seems (at least to a native speaker) as a genuinely Czech surname. This indicates your ancestors in that family branch were probably of Czech origin. I would suspect some Polish trace (cf. placename Chromów) in more distant past, but this is purely my speculation. The aforemantioned site draws its data from official population database of Czech Ministry of Interior, which means the above given numbers of surname bearers residing in the Czech Reopublic are complete and more or less up-to-date. Unfortunately the distribution is published only down to county level or so, it doesn't pinpoint location of individuals. If the responder above states Rožďalovice as one of possible locations of interest, then, assuming your grandfather wasn't of Jewish faith) you can have a look into parish registers. For Rožďalovice (as well as rest of Central Bohemia) they are maintained by Státní oblastní archiv v Praze (State Regional Archives in Prague) and they have recently been recently digitized and published through website For accessing the digitized images you need to register with the site (free of charge), then try searching parish registers for location "Rožďalovice" (sometimes in the past the searching was broken in English version of the site, in case of a malfunction simply switch the site language to Czech, this should work). From search results I recommend to your attention books "Rožďalovice 23" (Roman Catholic Church, births 1878-1916) and "Bošín-ev 08" (Evangelical Church, births 1873-1903). See also Toyen (band), a Czech band whose leading musician is Petr Chromovský - maybe your relative... Given the small pool of Chromovskýs in the Czech Republic it seems quite plausible. Good luck with your research. GCZPN3 (talk) 13:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Chromów appears to have been part of Silesia, which is a territory that passed hands many times, and may have had Czech speakers for large parts of its history, even those parts which are now part of Poland. --Jayron32 14:22, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Dance name

There are some videos featuring characteristic leg-twisting dance that looks like a mix between twist and swing. What's the name of that dance? Thanks. Brandmeistertalk 14:08, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

@Brandmeister: it seems to be called the shuffle or sometimes "cutting steps". There seems to be lot on YouTube about it, this instructional video, for example. › Mortee talk 16:22, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

August 12

Ur-Horatio Hornblower

What is the first series of novels following the progress of a single character? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on how you define "novel". Epic cycles are as old as literature itself, and common characters appear throughout them. Odysseus, for example, appears in both Homeric epics as well as the Aeneid from centuries later (as Ulixes), as well as numerous other stories. If you want to get to real novels (prose fiction written by identifiable authors), then there are many pre-20th century series of novels which track a single character; for example the The d'Artagnan Romances (the Three Musketeers novels) which follow the life of a French musketeer from a young man to an old man, and those were written some 80 years before the Hornblower novels. Also, what's a series of novels as distinct from a multi-volume work; Tristram Shandy was published in 9 volumes over 9 years in the 1750s-1760s. Is that one novel, or 9 novels? The question itself depends on finding the first of things which are not well defined. --Jayron32 05:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Ignoring the red herrings of poetry and serialised novels, The Leatherstocking Tales were earlier than D'Artagnan, and are the best bet I can find. Novel sequence mentions various possibilities you could follow up, but many (such as Trollope) don't focus on one character. HenryFlower 08:56, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I was going to suggest Goethe's Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship and Wilhelm Meister's Journeyman Years, when I remembered that Robinson Crusoe has a sequel, The Farther Adventures of Robinson Crusoe. Up to you whether you want to count two as a series of novels. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
In the 20th century, Richard Hannay is the hero of five novels starting in 1915. From my childhood bookshelf, James Bigglesworth was the subject of "nearly a hundred volumes" of fiction, starting in 1932. Alansplodge (talk) 10:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
If you regard the Old Testament as a set of sequential narrations and the protagonist as a character the Bible may well qualify. It is a bestseller and not unknown to those who can cope with >140 letters.
Of course, the current version goes back to prehistory, the Big Bang and oral traditions, but so does Homer. I am not qualified to comment on the development of the dramatis persona(e) of the oevre.
In the beginning was the word, as somebody mused confusedly, sitting idly in front of an empty scroll of parchment. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Odysseus doesn't qualify, as he isn't the central character of either The Iliad or The Aeneid. The books of the Bible don't have a single unifying protagonist. So I guess that leaves Natty Bumppo, who edges out D'Artagnan by a couple of years. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:05, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Don Quixote is generally treated as a single novel today but was two separate works published in 1605 and 1615. Part Two was written after the first was published so I think it qualifies as a sequel. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:52, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I think this hits at a wider question namely what is meant by a 'series of novels'. For example according to Journey to the West, there is at least one other sequel A Supplement to the Journey to the West written by someone else and also actually occurring between parts of the main novel. I'm not sure if we know enough about the history of Journey to the West that we can say whether it was first published as one novel either. Nil Einne (talk) 13:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Yongli Emperor and Christianity

Did the Yongli Emperor convert to Christianity through the effort of Polish Jesuit Michał Boym? It seems his wife, mother, stepmother and son were converted by not the emperor himself. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

'The missionary who brought Catholicism into the Southern Ming Dynasty was Andre-Xavier Koffler. Within the palace, the minister of the court, Pang Tianshou, advised people to accept Christianity. This way of doing missionary work, working from the inside-out, was one of the tactics for the conversion of the Southern Ming Dynasty. As many of the Western missionaries said, “The spread of Catholicism in the palace was due to the combined efforts of Pang Tianshou and Koffler”' See On the Story of the Jesuits’ Action in the Southern Ming Dynasty from Shanghai University. According to that article, Boym was Koffler's successor. Alansplodge (talk) 10:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Hodey-ho di-ho di-ho

There's a refrain that's something of a trope in this kind of music. See Cab Calloway's Minnie the Moocher, 1931. There it starts with "Hidey-hi, oh," usually it's expanded into twice as many syllables. Did Calloway come up with this or are there earlier examples? Temerarius (talk) 17:13, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The usually reliable credits Calloway with the first use: "Calloway recalled in his autobiography that the song came first and the chorus was later improvised when he forgot the lyrics during a radio broadcast. [Harlem Renaissance Lives, Oxford, 2009]". Alansplodge (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I found a preview of Harlem Renaissance Lives from the African American National Biography (edited by Henry Louis Gates, Evelyn Brooks) which also details Blanche Calloway, Cab's sister, who used the phrase in a slightly earlier work, "Just a Crazy Song", which she recorded in early 1931. The book notes that "the two likely collaborated with one another and borrowed frequently from each other's acts" (p. 97). Alansplodge (talk) 20:02, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Collective term for continent, country, state, city, etc.

I'm making the hangman categories list and I am debating what is the precise collective term for continents, countries, states, provinces, perfectures, territories, counties, cities, towns, etc. etc. I'm thinking about geographical location or geopolitical location. Which one is more recommended? PlanetStar 17:53, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

If you leave out continents, then geopolitical is more precise. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
It would depend on what you use as continents. The split of Eurasia into Europe and Asia (as is common) clearly has political/historical rather than geographical underpinnings. Matt Deres (talk) 22:20, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that. The original (Ancient Greek) division was geographical: the land surrounding the Mediterranean was divided by the major waterways entering it, with the Bosporus and the Tanaïs (Don) separating Europe from Asia, and the Nile separating Asia from "Lybia" (Africa). (And in terms of culture, I'm pretty sure that the Greeks were closer to - and would have recognized themselves as being closer to - their immediate neighbours in Asia than they were to, say, the Celts or the European Scythians. And most other definitions of the Europe/Asia boundary that I've seen have been geographical (albeit rather convoluted), based on either rivers, watersheds, mountains, etc. (I will concede that that idea that there should be a boundary between "Europe" and "Asia" is probably an artifact of the Ancient Greek usage (which doesn't really make much sense when you consider that the rivers have to have sources) coupled with political/cultural differences, resulting in people coming up with such convoluted definitions of the boundary rather than just treating both as a single continent). Iapetus (talk) 10:03, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
It should be noted that we can place less blame with the Greeks than with modern classification schemes for separating Europe from Asia; from their perspective there is a rather prominent water feature (the Black Sea) which divides the two. I'm not sure how geographically aware the Greeks were that the boundary becomes arbitrary in the interior of modern Russia; for their immediate environment, the boundary was obvious. --Jayron32 14:08, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Geopolitical can be portmanteau of geographical and political, so continents can be included since they're geographical except for Europe and Asia which are political divisions of Eurasia. So there are really six geographical continents, seven if you include Zealandia. PlanetStar 23:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
The Geography article considers geopolitics to be a subset of geography. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
  • If you leave off "continent", the collective term for the rest of them is polity. --Jayron32 14:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
  • And if you want a simple term for game purposes, just use "place". -- (talk) 14:25, 13 August 2018 (UTC)


This is a trivial matter, but can anyone find how many siblings Ira T. Wyche had? Here, It says two, but in an article titled "'Papa' Wyche, Lee Prober, Called Doughboy's General". Centralia Sentential, it says he was one of eight brothers. Is there a definitive account? Eddie891 Talk Work 22:19, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

August 13

Anglican Church and Sola Fide

What's the Anglican Church's official position on the doctrine of Sola Fide. Is it officially accepted by the Anglican Church?

Try Sola fide#Anglican. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Note that there is an Anglican Communion of national churches, but not an Anglican Church which defines doctrine for everyone. Within each national church, there is a broad spectrum of traditions ranging from Evangelical at one end to Anglo-Catholic at the other, and within those strands, there are traditionalists and progressives. The Thirty-nine Articles which prescribe the Sola Fide doctrine are adhered to by some, but ignored others. Quoting from our article: "Each of the 44 member churches in the Anglican Communion is, however, free to adopt and authorise its own official documents, and the [Thirty-nine] Articles are not officially normative in all Anglican Churches (neither is the Athanasian Creed). The only doctrinal documents agreed upon in the Anglican Communion are the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed of AD 381, and the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral". Alansplodge (talk) 13:20, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

August 14

Clan Swinton

Were the members of the Clan Swinton Catholic or Protestant after Reformation, basically if they were known to be recusanct (I see they are not listed in the list of families of that article but don't know how accurate that is)? KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Can you narrow down when you mean by after the Reformation – right after? Within 100 years? More? The first person named in the article after 1518 was Sir John Swinton, who doesn’t have his own article or much of an internet footprint. The next, Alexander Swinton born c. 1625, is described in his own article as a “zealous Presbyterian”. (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
And that zealous Presbyterian was son of another Sir Alexander Swinton, sheriff of Berwickshire, and he was son of Robert Swinton, also sheriff of Berwickshire. Both of the last two represented Berwickshire in Parliament. Sources: [10] [11] This isn't my period, but surely it isn't conceivable that a man of those times could have held public office in Scotland if he were a Catholic? I'm talking here about chiefs of the Clan Swinton, but note that the clan itself is a much wider thing. --Antiquary (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Kavebear, remember that recusancy is an English-and-Welsh concept, in which the Anglican church is unquestionably dominant, not a Scottish concept. Before the Glorious Revolution, the situation of Anglicans (what's now the Scottish Episcopal Church) ranged from establishment to nonconformity, based on how consistently Presbyterian or consistently Anglican was the dominant party in the Church. Nyttend (talk) 12:00, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Although see CATHOLIC RECUSANCY IN SCOTLAND IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY. Alansplodge (talk) 15:14, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Hm, thank you for finding that. I'm not particularly familiar with the term (unlike with "Nonconformist"), and since the article is confined to England-and-Wales, I assumed that it didn't appear in Scotland. Nyttend (talk) 22:41, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Was this historically accurate?

I don't remember this TV commercial well (it was so long ago) but I think it might've shown that the world was still using horse-drawn buggies, carts or trucks in one of Manhattan's 2 CBDs (for utilitarian purposes) till at least 1928-9. The year is certain cause it showed a skyscraper I recognize that was still under construction in 1928. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Horse-drawn carriages were still regularly used in North America for the transport of goods until shortly after World War II. Milk-delivery vans were usually horse-powered in that period, for example, so it doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. Someone can probably come up with a better answer, though. Xuxl (talk) 12:44, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Here is an article on the history of horses in New York City. Widespread horse ownership was prevalent until more recently than you'd imagine. --Jayron32 12:50, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
"Transport of goods" is a little vague; they were used for short-distance deliveries, often along a fixed route... AnonMoos (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
They were used by street vendors of fruits and vegetables or cottage cheese: see Street Foods, as well as for other small businesses or movers for example. Neglecting the foreground, to the right of the sidewalk there is one of them, given the crowd possibly a fruit vendor to be seen in the distance in the following set "historic photos from the nyc municipal archives" picture #3. The photograph is dated 1931, location, in the vicinity of the Flatiron Building. -Askedonty (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Faded writing at the top of St. Peter's Square Obelisk (Vatican City)?

Looking at the image of the obelisk, at the very top of the stone part there seems to be some very faded writing. Haven't been able to find any references to it so far. Any ideas? Earl of Arundel (talk) 21:58, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

There is a wonderful book, Egyptian Obelisks, by Henry H. Gorringe (1885) that contains a chapter on the Vatican Obelisk, and is available online [12]. It mentions that the obelisk has or had many inscriptions in history, but that aside from the most recent ones at the base, many are faded or completely gone. These include the original dedication of the obelisk to Augustus and Tiberius, allegedly visible on the shaft: "Divo. Caes. Divi. Ivlii. F. Avgvsto. Ti. Caes. Divi. Avg. F. Avgvs. Sacrvm." Near the top was a more recent dedication, reading "Sanctissimae cruci Sixtus V. Pont. Max. consecravit e priore sede avvslvm et Caess. Aug. ac Tib. S. L. ablatum MDLXXXVI." I honestly cannot tell if the inscription you can barely make out in that photo is either of these. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Oh, I can do even better. Based on this 17th century sketch of the Obelisk, the original dedication is lower on the obelisk, near the pedestal, and parts are barely visible in your image (especially the capital "T"). The text you saw at the top is the most recent dedication. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
You're awesome. :) Thanks so much! Earl of Arundel (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

August 15


The Japanese jika-tabi are a kind of heavy-duty tabi socks with a rubber sole. Can somebody explain how the Japanese wear them? Do they wear a tabi inside or are they worn over the bare foot? The tabi I have seen seem to have a cushioned sole. How do they clean them? Do they go into the washer like socks or do they use a wet cloth as for athletic shoes? --Error (talk) 22:49, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

August 16

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