Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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Is this OR?

I was just wondering about my new article The Old Axolotl. I inserted the following claim there: "It is Dukaj's first book, and therefore longest work, translated to English as of this date." I also added the claim "The Old Axolotl is the first book of Dukaj published in English (in 2015)" to Jacek Dukaj. It is true (cue shaking of the head, I know), but I haven't found any reference stating so directly, I base this claim on the fact that the list of his works I (cited [1]) shows clearly which of his works were translated to English. There are only four, it is the only one classified under novels/novellas and the other three are classified as short stories. At what point, I wonder, do we leave WP:BLUE and enter WP:OR? Is my conclusion that this is his only book translated to English, and his longest work to be translated yet, OR, or BLUE? If you reply here, do ping me back. Cheers, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:42, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

I think your actual issue is the ambiguity of the word "book", which may refer to either a physical volume or a literary composition, which may or may not be published in a single volume. You can avoid this ambiguity by simply writing that The Old Axolotl is Dukaj's first novel translated into English, which is directly supported by the source you are citing. — Kpalion(talk) 21:42, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Pinging Piotrus for response. George Ho (talk) 17:54, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@Kpalion: Thanks. Through it is also listed under books at [2]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Racism in Africa

(Cross-posted from Talk:Racism in Africa)

69.121.8.140 has cited this for the claim that Islam introduced racism to Africa -- even though the source doesn't really discuss race or racism.

He is also trying to add material about Islam to the rest of the article even though other sources do not discuss Islam.

Making claims that a source is not explicit about, and making claims not found in sources, is original research and needs to be removed. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Recombining data from automotive production data source

There has been some debate as to how to handle automotive production figures. This is primarily in the article List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production (see talk page discussion here [[3]]. Related discussions have taken place on the GM [[4]] and Toyota articles [[5]]. The issue is how should the production volumes from various manufactures be combined. For example should Mazda numbers be added to Ford's (during the time of Ford control)? The agreed source of the numbers is the OICA. I believe all involved parties agree that this is a reliable source. The part in question is should the raw data from the OICA be combined. For example, here is the 2004 OICA data [[6]] and the table as presented in the article with footnotes explaining the regrouping of manufacture data[[7]]. Is it a violation of WP:NOR to take the raw data from a trusted source and regroup it in the article tables? Springee (talk) 13:15, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, this is more or less what you did at Smith & Wesson M&P15 with this edit.[8] I think it was wrong then, especially since you replaced reliable secondary sources with primary sources that require interpretation. The best answer for this is the same: use secondary sources where possible, but if you have to use primary sources make sure they explicitly draw the conclusion you're adding to the article. See WP:PSTS. Felsic2 (talk) 18:22, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Please limit your content disputes to that page. Springee (talk) 19:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm addressing the question you raised here. Using a combination of primary sources to support a conclusion that isn't made by a secondary source is original research. Felsic2 (talk) 15:39, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
Blocked proxy IP

Many diverse reliable sources weigh in on automobile manufacturer production rankings, including reports from industry associations, industry journals, the business press, and main stream media. For a simple example, from The New York Times:

Toyota knocked the Ford Motor Company from its longtime position as the world's second-largest automaker last year, according to Toyota's final sales results, which were released on Monday. Now all that stands between Toyota and first place is General Motors, setting up a challenge to America's dominance over the global auto industry that has been years in the making.[1]

References

  1. ^ Hakimjan, Danny (January 27, 2004). "Toyota Overtakes Ford as World's No. 2 Automaker". The New York Times. 

No one source is definitive; when reliable sources disagree among themselves, we are asked to summarize the disagreement. Rankings stated in Wikipedia voice should clarify which subsidiaries are included or excluded. Also relevant is that simple arithmetic is not original research. Further, context is important, so we cannot imply an endorsement of any one source and a definitive interpretation of that source by specifying a formula for combining manufacturers in such a way that it will settle all issues of rankings across all automotive articles. We are not industry analysts; the interpretation of the raw production numbers is best left to our sources. In addition, the article at issue might more clearly be titled "Ranking of automobile manufacturers by OICA production numbers;" as a single-source (OICA) list article it is of dubious encyclopedic value. 34.205.54.93 (talk) 22:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

  • The above is one of many Amazon proxy IPs used by a disruptive editor suspected of being HughD.Springee (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
The IP editor's comments might have confused the issue. No one in the discussions in question is saying that additional sources can't be used. As I read it, we can not say data in a table comes from a source (OICA) then recombine the data in a way that is different from the source. One example is the OICA reported Ford and Mazda separately in their 2005 table. Wiki editors decided that was an error and reported Ford's results as the sume of OICA's Mazda and Ford numbers. I see that as a NOR issue because the wiki article is not reporting what OICA reported (regardless of what secondary sources might say) and as is the wiki article doesn't cite a secondary source stating Ford and Mazda's numbers should be combined. If a secondary source is found (and I suspect they exist) then I still believe we need to reproduce the OICA numbers without alteration and then add a footnote that some sources combine the Ford and Mazda numbers. Ford and Mazda are used as an example but there are several cases beyond Ford and Mazda. Springee (talk) 00:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Some additional context for this ORN query.

  • An underlying issue is the sourcing of claims of the ranking of automobile manufacturers. Some automotive editors are insisting that all automobile manufacturer articles must use the same source for claims of productivity, and that that one source is the Organisation Internationale des Constructeurs d'Automobiles, even to the extent of using the OICA to exclude other reliable sources as incorrect or biased. Already, article List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production has been implemented as a single-source transcription of raw OICA numbers into Wikipedia. Other editors have noted that things are not quite so simple and have raised issues with this approach, including that our policies and guidelines clearly require us to include disagreements between reliable sources, and that even simple attempts to apply the raw OICA reports require some interpretation beyond basic arithmetic; for example, the annual OICA reports inconsistently bucketize alliances, ownership relationships, partial ownership relationships such as a 30% stake, and partial year relationships, such as an ownership stake finalized in mid-year.
  • Nominally a list article, the ranking in List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production is a subject of dispute. The article is organized by year, and for different years include production numbers for as many as 50 and as few as 15 manufacturers. Where the article includes just OICA's top say 15 manufacturers, a manufacturer may have a subsidiary below the top 15, and the ranking in List of manufacturers by motor vehicle production may be expected to be disputed with respect to reliable sources.

This ORN query asks an implied endorsement of a fundamentally flawed approach to sourcing claims of automobile manufacturer rankings. 34.205.54.93 (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

  • The above IP editor had been blocked. Springee (talk) 16:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
In which way is it incorrect to include Mazda's vehicle production in Ford's though it was a Ford affiliate as Ford owned one-third of Mazda? If you read this news article which says Toyota (including its subsidiaries Daihatsu and Hino) overtakes Ford as the world's second-largest automaker in 2003, you may find the following citation:

"Of note, Toyota's numbers include Daihatsu and Hino, two subsidiaries more than half owned by Toyota. Ford's numbers do not include Mazda, which it effectively controls, though it owns about a third of the company. If Mazda were added in, Ford would still be on top."

When reading that citation, one may see that Mazda WAS a Ford subsidiary/affiliate at that time, why Ford and Mazda would be listed together rather than separately as Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino. However, OICA lists Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino separately in 2003-2007 which results in Toyota being No.2 rather than No.1 in 2006 and 2007 though it usually IS No.1 'cause Toyota, Daihatsu and Hino together are larger than G.M. which is listed as No.1 which usually is wrong.

Ford and its (at that time) subsidiary/affiliate Mazda produced more than Toyota and its subsidiaries Hino and Daihatsu in 2004, which means it is usually wrong to list Toyota as No.2 and Ford as No.3 in 2004. I don't know why there has been a "mistake", is it possible to contact OICA to ask why Mazda has been listed separately from Ford though being a Ford affiliate? BjörnBergman 14:53, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

The numbers in the article are based on an industry group, the OICA. The way you have combined the numbers is a violation of NOR since you have regrouped the data in a way that isn't what the OICA did. It would be reasonable to add to the article that some analysts have combined the data differently but we should say we are getting OICA numbers then change the numbers. Springee (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

::An article drawn exclusively from a single source with dubious editorial processes is certainly highly unusual and of little encyclopedic value and probably an ill-advised effort, but if you insist on this idiosyncratic sourcing regime would you please support adding "...according to the OICA" to the title of the article so that our readers will be aware that a lowered sourcing standard is in effect, and warn our fellow editors that contributions from other reliable sources are not welcome? Our readers come to Wikipedia expecting the consensus of reliable sources, if they want the OICA numbers they can go to the OICA website. Thank you. 54.236.45.190 (talk) 22:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

NeilN removed the comment by 54.236.45.190, stating it was from a block editor. I have restored it because I believe both sides should be able to present their side of the discussion.  Stepho  talk  23:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── BjörnBergman and 54.236.45.190 are working under the belief that Mazda was a division of Ford at the time, which therefore makes it ok to add Mazda's production numbers to Ford's production numbers, ignoring how OICA ranks them separately. They make a similar case for Toyota owning Hino and Diahatsu. This is the main point that we differ on. To keep it simple, I will talk further about Ford and Mazda but the same basic argument applies to the Toyota side as well.

From the Mazda article, we learn that Ford owned 33% of Mazda shares at the time. This probably constitutes the majority for voting stock, thus giving Ford control over Mazda. However, I don't see anywhere that outright states that Ford owns Mazda. OICA seems to agree that they remained separate companies. Thus, Björn and 54.236.45.190 need to supply some proof that Ford owns Mazda. Without this proof we cannot override our source and recombined the raw numbers to provide a ranking that differs from what our source explicitly says.

Björn and 54.236.45.190 have tried putting in footnotes similar to "Ford includes Mazda which is an affiliate of the Ford Motor Company as of 2008. However, OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately." This is still trying to declare that Ford owns Mazda - without proof. An acceptable alternative would be something like "OICA lists Ford and Mazda separately. ORANISATION_XXX lists Mazda as part of Ford to rank Ford as #XXX[supporting ref]" - with a supporting reference of course.

Note also that there is an edit war on these articles. WP:BRD advises us to restore the original and then for both sides to refrain from further editing until discussions have been resolved., Björn and 54.236.45.190 keep reinstating their claims and Springee and myself revert it back to the original text. I fear that both sides have broken BRD.  Stepho  talk  23:07, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Microscope article, ultramicroscope without references in lead or anywhere in article

I believe this is purely original research. The introduction of the Microscope article contains the sentence:

Other major types of microscopes are the electron microscope (both the transmission electron microscope and the scanning electron microscope), the ultramicroscope, and the various types of scanning probe microscope.

I can't find a source for this, and it is not discussed or mentioned anywhere else in the article. The word "ultramicroscope" only appears in the lead of the article. The Ultramicroscope article does not make a similar claim about it being a "major type of microscope." Please feel free to source and/or discuss if you thnk this is not original research.

Talk:Microscope#Request_for_comment_on_ultramicroscope

Thank you, --2601:648:8503:4467:F4B3:6D6C:9DCC:DC06 (talk) 21:07, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Samuel Fraunces

User:GramereC is posting original research to the Samuel Fraunces article. She claims to be a descendant of Fraunces, and asks that others stay out of the way for a week so she can complete her work (approaching 200 edits): User talk:GramereC#3RR.

Yesterday, User:Tuckerresearch cautioned her on this behavior, and pointed out her conflicts of interest: Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?

I think it is time for an administrator to intervene.

Thank you. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Original research would be unsourced You have asked that I not use sources I published so I have added the primary sources.GramereC 14:36, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
That's exactly the problem. Self-published works should not be used, with a few exceptions. Primary sources can only be used when you are summarizing facts that are clearly stated in them. You are interpreting individual primary sources, sometimes even arguing with them, synthesizing your multiple interpretations of them, and sometimes even asking your family to do the same. We strictly limit that type of original research.
If you could do everybody a favor, would you for the time being write up your complete version of the article in a sandbox page e.g. User:GramereC/Fraunces. That way you can write exactly what you want to write and we could see exactly where you are trying to take the article. We could then include any reliably sourced, non-original research into the article, or even replace the entire article with your work, if that is consistent with our RS and NOR rules. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I am not the one who added my work to the article. so we do not have a problem there. The article is up there are corrections to the references to be made in format. I am not interpreting anything I have supplied the actual references in many case from the Founders papers. Which is a HUGE improvement to the statements made previously with no "Real" references. Beyond repeated and continued reference to two works the Pre-Visit paper by Jenny from the FTM and the brochure by Kym Rice. PLEASE cite an actual book by KYM that would be nice. Using the same to paid for by FTM pieces of work not listed on an authors page is where the problem is. Where do I get that source? Oh yes I have to go to the FTM and ask Jenny.
There are still statements up there right now with regard to staffing of the Washington households both in Philadelphia and NY there is no citation. Yet all but a few of the papers of Washington have been digitized and are accessible. If that is not original work I do not know what is. I did not do that. Someone other then Mt Vernon or Founders Papers has either added receipts of record and it is unpublished or published this who is it and where can we find it????GramereC 16:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I think you are entirely missing the point. You are editing with no regard for our rules. Please read WP:OR, WP:RS, WP:SELFPUB, WP:COI, and WP:AGF. If you read these you'll do a lot better in getting your material into Wikipedia. You can then practice your editing skill in an area that you are less passionate about. You can also do a complete reworking of the Samuel Fraunces article in your user space and we can see what you really want to do. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
No I am entirely getting the point. The article in it's previous state used the same two secondary sources for almost everything. When other secondary sources are introduced the same two or three editors throw the information out and revert it. It became necessary to place the primary sources. In this article you also had primary documents cited that were not what they said they were and were using it to express there opinion. Example of Washington's letters as documentation order of Mass arrest. Then followed Samuel Fraunces himself was arrested but let go for lack of evidence. What source was there for that? What secondary source was used? Whay do things like this get placed up and left. Placing the reference of the Will for Fraunces is necessary yet you yourself keep deleting the file number for retrevial so that it would take 3 days for any person educated or not to obtain the source. Then you tell me I can not use a primary document someplace else even if I have it in listing with active links to find it immediately. In this case there are two or three of you bullying at this point.
Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source.
GramereC 17:24, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
"I am not the one who added my work to the article"User:GramereC claims above. Note that all the additions quoted in the complaint below were posted by User:GramereC or under one of her aliases. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
"Much of this text is not mine but is what was there to begin with by some unsigned editor who is never identified. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)"
The complaint below includes links to the article immediately before each of User:GramereC's strings of edits, and immediately after. Anyone can compare the versions and see that all the quoted additions were posted by User:GramereC or under one of her aliases. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 19:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
I suspect User:GramereC may be posting under a new alias.[9] User:2600:8803:3400:8200:2590:8c3c:59a7:70f4 today added details to the article that only someone intimately familiar with her work would know. (Note also the edit summary.) BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Whether I was wrong or right about this alias, I regret posting the above comment. I will not delete it because I believe in preserving the complete discussion. BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:15, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Complaint

User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.

Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:

  • Additions made between 18 September 2008[10] and 10 February 2009[11], a period in which User:Coroinn was the only editor.
    • "Fraunces was born in Jamaica West Indies of African, French and English ancestry."
    • "Samuel Fraunces is most often remembered as the Jamacian [sic] born mulatto steward of George Washington's household."
    • "His son Samuel was always described as Negro in U.S. Census and Trinity Church, New York records, his daughter Sophia Fraunces Gomez was enumerated as a free black in 1840 and his son Andrew G. Fraunces was enumerated as mulatto in 1800."
    • "It is during this earlier time when Fraunces' daughter Elizabeth "Phoebe" Fraunces is creditied [sic] with exposing an atempt [sic] on Washington's life."
    • User:Coroinn ends the article by listing her self-published biography: "A Biography: Samuel Fraunces 'Black Sam' ISBN 978-1-4363-9104-7"
  • Additions made between 15 April 2009[12] and 29 April 2009[13], a period in which User:Coroinn was the only editor (except for a spelling correction by User:LilHelpa).
    • "Samuel Fraunces born in Jamaica, the year of his birth when calculated from baptismal records is placed at 1734 when calculated from obituary it is 1722. The informant for the obituary in the “Gazette of the United States”, October 13, 1795 is unknown. The informant for his baptism at age 14 is himself."
    • There are portraits of Samuel available to look at on line. The portrait which can be authenticated and was owned by the family is found at http://www.quinnipiac.edu/other/ABL/etext/stagetavern/images/p184i.jpg . This portrait was in the possession of Edith Bucklin Hartshorn Mason who's DAR record can be seen at: http://books.google.com/books?id=7wnvsrbxPcsC&pg=PA54&dq=David+Pye+Fraunces&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html . There is another portrait which cannot be authenticated and is found at Fraunces Tavern which can be viewed on flicker [sic] at http:[email protected]/1115086538 .
    • "Samuel was born in the West Indies of French and African ancestry. The French ancestry is the same French ancestry as his cousin's the Jacquelin and Ambler families of Jamestown Settlement Virginia."
    • "The 1790 United States Census for New York page 63 of the Dock Ward lists Samuel Fraunces as a free white male with four females and one enslaved individual in the household, the enslaved individual is his son Samuel. Who ever [sic] the informant or enumerator was certainly was not familiar with the family. At the time of his baptism Samuel Fraunces the elder is listed as a mulatto."
    • "Samuel Fraunces was always remembered as mulatto in racial references until the turn of the 19th century. At that same time the building of Fraunces Tavern was in danger of demolition. The Daughters of the American Revolution went on record with protest to the demolition. The city of New York designated the area as park. The Sons of the Revolution eventually acquired the site and rebuilt the building we see today. At some point in time during this process it appears a campaign to do away with Samuel ‘s ethnicity occurred. At the same time because of the tradition that Phoebe was of color the traditions linking Phoebe to Samuel begin to be called into question. One of the first arguments against his ethnicity is from Mrs. Melusina Fay Pierce of the Women’s auxiliary of preservation of Scenic and Historic places and objects in New York City. Henry Russell Drowne later in A Sketch of Fraunces Tavern and Those Connected with Its History (New York: Fraunces Tavern, 1919), p. 8. States if a Phoebe existed she may have been a woman enslaved or employed by Fraunces, rather than his daughter."
    • ”Many of the informants for the recollections including him were children at the time. His daughter Elizabeth "Phoebe" and her contemporaries were only about 10 years old. George Washington "Wash" Parke Custsis [sic] was about 9 years old.”
    • ”Some have even stated that Trinity Church had no African American members. Among the many records which include some with race noted at Trinity Church are records for Samuel Fraunces Jr's marriage found at:http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/history/content/registers/display_detail.php?id=4373&sacr=marriage. If the census records for NYC and the Trinity Church records are compared examianing [sic] race they are found to be consistent with each other less than 50% of the time. Race was subjective and was not always noted on either record.”
  • Additions made between 20 March 2017[14] and 4 April 2017[15], a period in which User:GramereC/User:71.58.105.199 was the only editor (except for spelling corrections by User:Arjayay, User:Terrek and User:192.184.113.252).
    • ”Samuel Fraunces mother was a plantation worker named Maria Margaret on the plantation of Edward Fraunces in Jamaica and was remembered in his will of 1741 filed in London.”
    • ”Samuel Fraunces had a maternal grandfather Oliver, who was enslaved by Hamilton as noted on the Christ Church Philadelphia baptism records of 31 Nov 1766.”
    • ”Samuel Fraunces ethnography would include all of the aforementioned dependent on which person you want to look at. The name Fraunces is seen with one family from England dating back to Henry VII and that is the family if Edward Fraunces who died in 1741. The french extraction so often referred to is that of the Jaquelin family from Vendee France and the grandmother of Edward Fraunces.”[16] [Note – Edward Fraunces died unmarried, left his Estate to his brother, “Madge” and “Maria” were different persons (not a single “Maria Margaret”), and there is no proof that any of them had any connection to Samuel Fraunces.]
    • ’’Maybe coincidentally, when the Washington's Headquarters was purchased by the SR [Sons of the Revolution] and renamed Fraunces Tavern the information changed. He was no longer mixed racial or negro he was now a white man.’’
    • ’’With regaurd [sic] to race genealogies show us that not all of Samuel's children passed as white all of the time. At marriage Samuel Jr is Negro, Trinity Church Database.[17] Sophia and her children are enumerated as Negro while in NYC, Mulatto when they leave for France and White when they return to Louisiana. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA); Washington D.C.; NARA Series: Passport Applications, 1795-1905; Roll #: 96; Volume #: Roll 096 - 26 Apr 1861-31 May 1861. Elizabeth "Phebe" is noted as colored when she is buried. Trinity Church Database[18]
    • ”A closer look at the family reveals that sister and mother lived in Santo Domingo now Hati, as indicated on census records for John Frances, a descendant of Louis Francis and nephew of Fraunces. Year: 1880; Census Place: Warrington, Escambia, Florida; Roll: 127; Family History Film: 1254127; Page: 1B; Enumeration District: 041; Image: 0005

User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims.Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Complaint (with comments by User:GramereC)

User:GramereC – a.k.a. User:Coroinn, a.k.a. User:CRCole; a.k.a. User:71.58.75.28, a.k.a. User:166.217.248.24, a.k.a. User:72.69.56.203, a.k.a. User:69.86.246.30, a.k.a. User:71.58.105.199 – has flagrantly used the Samuel Fraunces article to disseminate her theories about Fraunces’s parentage, ancestry and descendants; to discredit the documentary record and legitimate scholarship on Fraunces; to promote conspiracy theories about and imply racists motives to those with whose work she disagrees; and to promote her self-published Fraunces biography.

Where has this happened??? again here is Boring History Guy going off on anyone who tries to remove anyting he says about Fraunces.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Some of her most outrageous claims and accusations have been made on the talk page. But this complaint will be limited to original research added to the article. Below are some examples of original research added during periods in which she was the only editor of content:

So if we use the talk page Boring History Guy gets angry and turns everything personal.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Additions made between 18 September 2008[19] and 10 February 2009[20], a period in which User:Coroinn was the only editor.
    • "Fraunces was born in Jamaica West Indies of African, French and English ancestry."
    • "Samuel Fraunces is most often remembered as the Jamacian [sic] born mulatto steward of George Washington's household."
    • "His son Samuel was always described as Negro in U.S. Census and Trinity Church, New York records, his daughter Sophia Fraunces Gomez was enumerated as a free black in 1840 and his son Andrew G. Fraunces was enumerated as mulatto in 1800."
    • "It is during this earlier time when Fraunces' daughter Elizabeth "Phoebe" Fraunces is creditied [sic] with exposing an atempt [sic] on Washington's life."
    • User:Coroinn ends the article by listing her self-published biography: "A Biography: Samuel Fraunces 'Black Sam' ISBN 978-1-4363-9104-7"

All three things are true but have often been removed because YOU Boring Old History Guy say so. That is fine remove the birth certificate because the dates vary remove burials for the same reason. Which is what you do. Even when it is replaced with some other work you blank it out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Additions made between 15 April 2009[21] and 29 April 2009[22], a period in which User:Coroinn was the only editor (except for a spelling correction by User:LilHelpa).
    • "Samuel Fraunces born in Jamaica, the year of his birth when calculated from baptismal records is placed at 1734 when calculated from obituary it is 1722. The informant for the obituary in the “Gazette of the United States”, October 13, 1795 is unknown. The informant for his baptism at age 14 is himself."
    • There are portraits of Samuel available to look at on line. The portrait which can be authenticated and was owned by the family is found at http://www.quinnipiac.edu/other/ABL/etext/stagetavern/images/p184i.jpg . This portrait was in the possession of Edith Bucklin Hartshorn Mason who's DAR record can be seen at: http://books.google.com/books?id=7wnvsrbxPcsC&pg=PA54&dq=David+Pye+Fraunces&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html . There is another portrait which cannot be authenticated and is found at Fraunces Tavern which can be viewed on flicker [sic] at http:[email protected]/1115086538 .
    • "Samuel was born in the West Indies of French and African ancestry. The French ancestry is the same French ancestry as his cousin's the Jacquelin and Ambler families of Jamestown Settlement Virginia."
    • "The 1790 United States Census for New York page 63 of the Dock Ward lists Samuel Fraunces as a free white male with four females and one enslaved individual in the household, the enslaved individual is his son Samuel. Who ever [sic] the informant or enumerator was certainly was not familiar with the family. At the time of his baptism Samuel Fraunces the elder is listed as a mulatto."
    • "Samuel Fraunces was always remembered as mulatto in racial references until the turn of the 19th century. At that same time the building of Fraunces Tavern was in danger of demolition. The Daughters of the American Revolution went on record with protest to the demolition. The city of New York designated the area as park. The Sons of the Revolution eventually acquired the site and rebuilt the building we see today. At some point in time during this process it appears a campaign to do away with Samuel ‘s ethnicity occurred. At the same time because of the tradition that Phoebe was of color the traditions linking Phoebe to Samuel begin to be called into question. One of the first arguments against his ethnicity is from Mrs. Melusina Fay Pierce of the Women’s auxiliary of preservation of Scenic and Historic places and objects in New York City. Henry Russell Drowne later in A Sketch of Fraunces Tavern and Those Connected with Its History (New York: Fraunces Tavern, 1919), p. 8. States if a Phoebe existed she may have been a woman enslaved or employed by Fraunces, rather than his daughter."
    • ”Many of the informants for the recollections including him were children at the time. His daughter Elizabeth "Phoebe" and her contemporaries were only about 10 years old. George Washington "Wash" Parke Custsis [sic] was about 9 years old.”
    • ”Some have even stated that Trinity Church had no African American members. Among the many records which include some with race noted at Trinity Church are records for Samuel Fraunces Jr's marriage found at:http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/history/content/registers/display_detail.php?id=4373&sacr=marriage. If the census records for NYC and the Trinity Church records are compared examianing [sic] race they are found to be consistent with each other less than 50% of the time. Race was subjective and was not always noted on either record.”

Again much of this was removed by Boring Old History Guy. Not corrected with any type of note added. Much of this text is not mine but is what was there to begin with by some unsigned editor who is never identified. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


  • Additions made between 20 March 2017[23] and 4 April 2017[24], a period in which User:GramereC/User:71.58.105.199 was the only editor (except for spelling corrections by User:Arjayay, User:Terrek and User:192.184.113.252).
    • ”Samuel Fraunces mother was a plantation worker named Maria Margaret on the plantation of Edward Fraunces in Jamaica and was remembered in his will of 1741 filed in London.”
    • ”Samuel Fraunces had a maternal grandfather Oliver, who was enslaved by Hamilton as noted on the Christ Church Philadelphia baptism records of 31 Nov 1766.”
    • ”Samuel Fraunces ethnography would include all of the aforementioned dependent on which person you want to look at. The name Fraunces is seen with one family from England dating back to Henry VII and that is the family if Edward Fraunces who died in 1741. The french extraction so often referred to is that of the Jaquelin family from Vendee France and the grandmother of Edward Fraunces.”[25] [Note – Edward Fraunces died unmarried, left his Estate to his brother, “Madge” and “Maria” were different persons (not a single “Maria Margaret”), and there is no proof that any of them had any connection to Samuel Fraunces.]
    • ’’Maybe coincidentally, when the Washington's Headquarters was purchased by the SR [Sons of the Revolution] and renamed Fraunces Tavern the information changed. He was no longer mixed racial or negro he was now a white man.’’
    • ’’With regaurd [sic] to race genealogies show us that not all of Samuel's children passed as white all of the time. At marriage Samuel Jr is Negro, Trinity Church Database.[26] Sophia and her children are enumerated as Negro while in NYC, Mulatto when they leave for France and White when they return to Louisiana. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA); Washington D.C.; NARA Series: Passport Applications, 1795-1905; Roll #: 96; Volume #: Roll 096 - 26 Apr 1861-31 May 1861. Elizabeth "Phebe" is noted as colored when she is buried. Trinity Church Database[27]
    • ”A closer look at the family reveals that sister and mother lived in Santo Domingo now Hati, as indicated on census records for John Frances, a descendant of Louis Francis and nephew of Fraunces. Year: 1880; Census Place: Warrington, Escambia, Florida; Roll: 127; Family History Film: 1254127; Page: 1B; Enumeration District: 041; Image: 0005

User:Tuckerresearch confronted User:GramereC on some of her most outrageous and undocumented claims.Talk:Samuel Fraunces#Edward Fraunces → Samuel Fraunces? Talk:Samuel Fraunces#What is happening?, and User:GramereC deleted the items. But how can Wikipedia tolerate this behavior? BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I think this recent round of edits can be researched on their own. Again If you are going to use other Tertiary sources such as the museum pre visit or the booklet Kym Rice did for the FTM and SR you need to look at what references they used to begin with. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Prime problems are representing the current building as having been there since colonial times. It was a rebuild. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

The portrait that FTM uses was purchased at auction in 1913 and although they say it is Fraunces they offer no provenance. The only way to verify where it came from is from SR published minutes. The way the portrait is continually put up front without recognizing that there is another earlier published sketch of Samuel Fraunces provided by family. Plus written description in conflict with the description is reprehensible in that they are in need of reproof. There are other places where the documents are just as reprehensible.GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Limiting the secondary sources acceptable in your eyes necessitate exposing the primary documents because the primary documents are in conflict. Most of these conclusions were reached many years ago. You actual took WEB DuBois statement and had it written that Fraunces had no African blood. That just is not true all anyone has to do is read the final letter in the discussion. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

You continue to go back to Fraunces Will and you do not give a viable source to find it. Then when I place one in your text as correction you take it back out. GramereC 19:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

User:BoringHistoryGuy on this Samuel Fraunces article is an entire section that has NOTHING published about it. This poisoning attempt – if it occurred – would have taken place in late June 1776 at Richmond Hill, Washington's headquarters in Manhattan. The housekeeper there was a widow named Mary Smith,[85] although there were other female servants. Fraunces's tavern was about two miles away and provided catered meals for the general and his staff. The reference included here is for the wrong thing.

This Wikipedia article then goes on to argue why Lossing's story is incorrect based on the assertion that the events took place at Richmond Hill. This is original work.GramereC 01:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Walls of words don't work here

Particularly when a response is interleaved with the complaint. Editors here will not be able to work through all of the above content disputes. The only thing that is clear is that the two editors completely disagree on the content and that they cannot communicate with each other. GramereC, you cannot insist that only your version be included in the article. User:BoringHistoryGuy is a respected editor here and seems to have very good knowledge of the general area. If you cannot reach agreement with him on what should be included in the article, or find other editors who back your version, then you just cannot force your version of things into the article. We do things by consensus here.

I strongly urge you to write up your own version of the article in your own user space, then we'll be able to properly judge both the overall content of the "two" articles and individual sentences and paragraphs. If you are only willing to give us a choice between "your article" or "his article", my feeling is that editors will choose "his article." Smallbones(smalltalk) 20:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I have left as much of the old article as possible and if you look at just the Phebe edits you can see that. Boring History Guy wants his version and no other. You keep insisting that this is a thing between he and I which is not my feeling at all. I have not insisted mine is the only version and if you go back and look that is true. Boring History Guy has the agenda it is not me. I removed sources referring to me or my publications. Tried to leave his stuff there as much as possible. GramereC 23:26, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


Maybe I can do that tomorrow. The article right now has both sides which was never the problem.

Currently the only thing left is those numbers for the Presidential household which have no citiation. They are obviously the work of someone adding things up themselves but since there is no cite it is hard to tell what they are saying it is on the talk page under presidential household. Mt Vernon sent a list of known sources to cite the size of household and none match the numbers given.

As far as your consensus goes send it to an admin or an arbitrator. The gang of three is ridiculous.GramereC 23:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok it is all in the sand box I think I got everything folks sent me overnight. I left spaces where I have issues not sure how you wanted that. There are still an awful lot of BAD REFERENCES. GramereC 17:15, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

And then this: I suspect User:GramereC is posting under a new alias.[8] User:2600:8803:3400:8200:2590:8c3c:59a7:70f4 today added details to the article that only someone intimately familiar with her work would know. (Note also the deceptive edit summary.) BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC) Is he talking about the overnight puncuation and text corrections someone did? They were fine.

Quoting number of Google News hits

Is it original research to state "News site X has been quoted Y thousand times" using a Google News url? Eg using this link to support "PolitiFact has been quoted 185 thousand times". Stickee (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Google's result counting is too variable to quote exact figures, but a statement such as "PolitiFact has been quoted thousands of times" would conform to WP:Primary as
  1. a "straightforward, descriptive statements of facts" and
  2. free of interpretation.
Batternut (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
This is an RS question at least in part. Many of those hits will be to the actual news site, others to who knows what, but meaningless. Doug Weller talk 13:35, 9 April 2017 (
No as your search results also comes upon with pages from PolitiFact, google will search for instances of the term, not how they are used.Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: incorrect, the search term "-site:politifact.com" in the example given removes those hits. Batternut (talk) 14:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
I stand corrected. Apart fro this, self referencing [28]Slatersteven (talk) 14:16, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
That page quotes Politifact without linking to it. I don't see the problem...? Batternut (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Of course as with all Goggle hits, what they sau they gave found and the number of hits you get on the last page differs, the last pages says "Page 82 of about 158,000 results"Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
This used to confuse me, though now I realise that Google gives at most 1000 results, and usually less, but it doesn't mean they have given you all possible hits. I haven't seen a full explanation from Google, I'd think it would probably be horribly technical - I suspect they start with the first 1000 contenders from the index, subsequent filters leave the 820 that you actually want, but thousands more contenders remain un-returned. Batternut (talk) 17:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
maybe, but it does not alter the fact that we cannot be sure that all the results are relevant (as you say "what we were looking "). This makes it hard to think of this as meeting verifiabilty, it may change based upon some random factor of googles (in fact it has it now returners "Page 82 of about 303,000 results".Slatersteven (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
But "quoted thousands of times" was still verified by your query - true for about 303,000, about 185,000, or and about 158,000 results. For figures over 1000, whenever Google says "about x results", I would only describe as "quoted for hundreds / thousands / maybe tens or hundreds of thousands / millions of times". Batternut (talk) 19:46, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
There is a bias in mentioning how many times something has been cited, because it implies the source is important. But we don't know that from the cite count, so it is implied synthesis. If a source has been cited x number of times is significant, then that should be found in reliable sources in a reliable secondary source. TFD (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Because "Google News are more likely to return reliable sources" (per WP:GOOGLEHITS) I think such cite counts do give a rough indicator of importance, especially in the arena of modern news media where being heard and being echoed is more important than being right. Alas perhaps, but the importance is not implied, it is measured even if only to an approximate order of magnitude. Batternut (talk) 21:23, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
You have just written a justification for synthesis. But the policy remains against it and would have to be changed to allow the observation. I don't know what you mean by "the importance is not implied, it is measured." You just said, "Google News are more likely to return reliable sources." In other words a higher count implies greater importance, which is the only reason to include the count in the first place. TFD (talk) 21:41, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
I see it like giving book or record sales figures, eg 100 million copies of the Bible sell each year, The Doors sold 4,190,457 albums, or even California Girls reached No. 3 etc. Do these claims synthetically imply success, or are they a measure of it? Batternut (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
The Bible figure is attributed to reliable secondary sources: The Economist and Russell Ash. Stickee (talk) 11:26, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
True, but primary/secondary source is not actually pertinent to TFD's synthesis argument above. Batternut (talk) 13:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
The prohibition is against synthesis by editors, not in reliable sources. We expect secondary sources to perform synthesis. If secondary sources consistently mention that the Bible sells 100 million copies per year, then we include it per "Balancing aspects." Reporters, historians and social scientists have their own criteria in deciding that is or is not significant. Our criteria is whatever they consider to be significant and we do not second guess their judgment. That is of value to readers because they want articles to present what is found in reliable secondary sources, not information that reliable secondary sources omit. If they want to know how many hits a news site has on Google, then they can do a Google search. TFD (talk) 06:48, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
An odd thing I've found about cite counts is that sometimes as you click through you'll find the count reduces dramatically. I did miss the bit in the search that eliminated the site, useful that, but Google News will still throw up some odd sources. Google Scholar is much worse. From the name you'd expect scholarly sources, but it also throws up woowoo. Doug Weller talk 13:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The second click eliminates duplications, but it will ask you if you want to include them. Some of the sources are of course better than others, which is probably why it is a poor guide. I notice in the PolitiFact enquiry, the first page shows it has been quoted in PJ Media, the Daily Caller and NewsBusters, and they all trash it. You need expertise in journalism to interpret this or save time and just accept that it is synthesis. TFD (talk) 16:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

So where in WP:SYNTH is there distinction between primary and secondary source? Does it really matter which reliable source gives us "The Doors sold 4,190,457" or "100 mill Bibles sold", so long as we are satisfied with its likely truth? Reliability is important, which is why it is specified in WP:Synth, but primary/secondary is not, which is why primary/secondary is not mentioned in WP:Synth. Batternut (talk) 08:54, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

---
It seems to me that the synthesis issues above do not have any policy basis, at least as far as stated in WP:SYNTH. For the following reasons:

(a) primary source is good enough - WP:SYNTH does not require secondary source,
(b) WP:SYNTH only talks about combining material; this claim is supported by a single part of one source,
(c) the claim is a statistic of a type found all over wikipedia, and "SYNTH is not ubiquitous", per WP:What_SYNTH_is_not.

Either of (b) or (c) above would mean, independent of all other factors, that the claim does not fall foul of WP:SYNTH, and I submit that both are true. IMHO. Batternut (talk) 20:37, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

"of a type found all over wikipedia" I can't say I've seen anyone use Google News cite counts attributed to a search page before. Stickee (talk) 22:20, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Is that not an RS concern, rather than OR/synthesis? Batternut (talk) 08:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

---
The discussion so far seems to me to amount to:

  1. Synthesis does not apply.
  2. Claim "News site X has been quoted Y thousand times" is not verifiable given the approximate and variable nature of the source.
  3. Claim "News site X has been quoted hundreds (or thousands) of times" is verifiable if Google News is considered reliable.

So, is this discussion the place to consider the reliability question, or should that go to WP:RSN? Or have I missed something? Batternut (talk) 22:03, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

It appears to be both an OR and RS concern, since when you're performing OR there's no way concrete way to judge reliability of what you've conducted. Stickee (talk) 03:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Can we use sources that don't discuss British Israelism to make arguments about genetics?

The section British Israelism#Lack of consistency with modern genetic findings is sourced, but the sources do not discuss British Israelism (and the source for Khazars fails WP:RS but that's another issue. I'm having a pretty fruitless discussion on Talk:British Israelism with a new editor, a supporter of BI, about original research but not getting very far. I don't believe we should be making arguments using sources that don't directly discuss the subject of the article. On the other hand, I've at least once had an editor tell me this sort of use of sources (not at this article) is ok. See also Talk:British Israelism#Assessment comment. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 12:39, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, as long as they make a clear link between Jews and the Anglo-Saxons. What we canot do is say
"group A is related to group B, Group B comes form area A as does group C thus group A and C are related". that is Synthesis.Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
No, we can only use reliable secondary sources that discuss British Israelism. If we present arguments that do not exist in these sources, then we are advocating either for or against the theory, which is contrary to synthesis. If one editor wants to add his or her personal arguments about how science does not support their theories, then there is nothing to prevent another editor from providing arguments that they do. TFD (talk) 19:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
As the 'new editor' in question, (and green regarding the methods used on Wikipedia, but learning :), my argument would be that the term "British-Israel' is simply one title used to describe the movement, where 'Anglo-Israel' would be another of many. Ideally the term should be British/Israel as it summarizes the main tenet of a connection between the Anglo-Saxon/Celtic peoples with the ancient tribes of the sons of Jacob originating in Palestine. You're going to find very few references that use those terms, but plenty that, for example regarding DNA, refer to 'Northwestern Europeans' and 'Jews' or 'Irish' and 'Arab'. Wilfred Brown (talk) 00:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree that we should only use reliable secondary sources directly discussing British/Anglo Israelism. The article is not the place to thrash out genetic relationships anymore than it should be used to discuss all the arguments about the Ten Lost Tribes from whom this belief says the people of Great Britain descend. Sure, Doug Weller talk 14:04, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
British Israelism is, by it's own admission, a 'religious movement', and falls under the WP:NPOV section on Religion, which states;

"In the case of beliefs and practices, Wikipedia content should not only encompass what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices, but also account for how such beliefs and practices developed. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts as well as from modern archaeological, historical, and scientific sources."

As such, the adherents draw upon all sorts of 'archaeological, historical and scientific sources' as a) basis for their belief, b) how such beliefs and practices developed and c) What motivates them. If these sources are denied, then all that's left is what some academic critic has to say about British Israelism. It's like the Catholicism article not being allowed to use the Bible as a source because the term 'Catholic' or 'Pope' are not found in the Bible. It's utterly ridiculous. Wilfred Brown (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
The article Catholicism does not use the Bible as a source. That's because it is not up to editors to determine the extent to which the Bible influenced the religion or where they deviated from it, but requires analysis that can only be provided if it is sourced to experts. Otherwise we could have arguments about whether Catholicism is the one true Christian religion or heresy. TFD (talk) 18:43, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

ron popeil

Mr. Ron Popeil received the award from the Electronic Retail Association (ERA) in 2001. I know, because I was having dinner with him and his staff/family at the Paris hotel in Las Vegas.

"Historical differences" in Hamilton (musical)

regarding: Hamilton_(musical)#Historical_differences: There are numerous statements in this section, supported not by reference to reviews or critiques of the play, but by references to history. e.g "However, Hamilton remained close friends with Washington and highly influential in the political sphere.[116]", where the ref is to an article about the historical person, not a review of the musical. This is synthesis: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." The editor does exactly that: compares the play with history and concludes that the play is inaccurate. Editors are not allowed to critique, only to cite a reliable source that makes such a conclusion, not put it together yourself. The section "Criticism of historical differences" meanwhile does cite criticism, not originate it, so it is valid. "Historical differences" should all be deleted except for any parts that could be merged into "Criticism of historical differences". I put this comment on the Talk page of the article, with as yet no response. 202.81.249.207 (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Sometimes pointout out the obvious from clearly known historical facts is fine (say if the musical presented Hamilton as the President of the US, that's fair to point out). But here we're talking scholarly details that require some degree of academic analysis to ascertain, and definitely is synthesis that we avoid; it is similar to noting the differences between a book and the film based on it, or the like, even if it seems clear to resolve. If secondary sources make note of the differences, then it can be included to avoid the OR, but to simply use historical details to show the differences isn't appropriate. --MASEM (t) 18:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
it is unacceptable synthesis. We know that there are differences: the Founding Fathers did not sing and dance through the late 18th century. Differences should only be mentioned if critics mention them and should be sourced to their articles. TFD (talk) 18:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
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