Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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Ezidkhan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was up to July this year an article mainly about a historical region.[1] Since then Niele~enwiki (talk · contribs) has turned it into an article about " unrecognised de facto autonomous area established in the western part of the Iraqi Sinjar region.[verification needed]".(tag added in September by User:Ahmedo Semsurî. According to the infobox it has its own official language, a government which is a Democratic confederalism and Direct democracy and a Supreme Spiritual Council. Only the last has any sources, [2] which cites the second source[3].

Very little of the article is sourced. Much is about various takeovers and various security forces. This isn't the place to argue about the reliability of the sources, although I'm dubious about the two above. My point is that I can find no reliable sources justifying the claim in the introduction and the infobox, as well as elsewhere, that this is any form of government. If the claim by this source[4] is true, that there is an "Ezidixan autonomy commission under the auspices of the United Nations," - or if any of the basic thesis is true, why can't I find more clearly reliable sources? Doug Weller talk 12:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

See this - [5] (Yazidi autonomy (or various Yazidi + something) are probably better search words). The article does however seem to take things a bit, umm, too far - though some mention probably is in order.Icewhiz (talk) 12:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC) Addendum - there has also been some recent (counter-Yazidi I believe) developments on the ground - [6].Icewhiz (talk) 12:52, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I wich way does the article takes anything to far? I do not understand why you downplay the reality of this fully autonomous region and on wich basis do you make those claims?.
East-Sinjar has already 3 years governed by autonomous Yezidi council control. With no Bagdad officials or KRG official allowed to enter the region during this whole period.
It officially declared autonomy and has set up own institutions, policeforce, military,...
It is indeed sad that it isn't covered by media more otherwise I would have added a lot extra sourcing.
Many larger media outlets just ignore the region, recklessly putting it falsely under KRG or Bhagdads government control depending the mediaoutlet loyalities or loyalities of their article sources. While non of these 2 have any control over this area the past 3 years.
At this time it's autonomy is even better established than that of the problem-plagued KRG.
But the sourcing on the page is very clear, explains the declaration of autonomy. It also neutral as also statements of the autonomous region opponents are added in the article. Framing the Syrian-YPG introduced region in Iraq as 'PKK'.
For sure is an area that is governed completely autonomous for now already 3 years very Encyclopia and wikipedia-worthy.
Any help in extra sourcing the article, of an autonomous region that is ignored by a lot of press is very helpfull.--Niele~enwiki (talk) 13:33, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
More reliable sources are required. And clearly this claim is contested - by ISIS, the KRG, Shia Iraq, and Turkey. De-facto control of the ground in western Sinjar throughout the three years has not be totally continuous I believe. We have other corners of Iraq and Syria which have been under the De-facto control of various groups - e.g. Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade control a piece of south-western Syria rather continuously since 2013 or so. We haven't modified Quneitra Governorate. We need to be very careful not to support the sectarian claims of various factions beyond the level evident in the sources (Which in this case, the KRG and YPG might want to show as part of a continuous Kurdish region - linking Iraq and Syria).Icewhiz (talk) 13:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
The sources for the existence of an autonomous region are partisan - if this was clearly true, I'm sure there would be better sources, and the defense that other media are telling porkies isn't going to hold water. There are no sources for the form of government, the languages, and much else. I'm not sure that the editor adding all of this is really clear about what we mean by no original research. Doug Weller talk 14:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
I agree. Beshogur (talk) 14:34, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can see there is no evidence of recognition either of autonomy, or of any process to consider it. The proclamation of autonomy should certainly be mentioned, but to present it as established is misleading. Significant clean-up is required, but simple Burden can justify removal much of the problematic text. Batternut (talk) 10:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Is there consensus to clean this up? Doug Weller talk 18:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Scrub away, I say. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:13, November 8, 2017 (UTC)

Catalan supremacism

I have created an RfC on an article talk page, largely translated from Spanish language wikipedia which has created a lot of aggro, in context of current political tensions in Catalonia because it is about the history of racial supremacist thought in early and late Catalan nationalism. I am doing my best to resolve issue of article which I created and is very extensively sourced. The debate currently pertains to the title and lead. I would request editors to comment after reading body of article extensively and judging on whether the sourcing supports the name and content of lead of the article. This is a complex matter so would suggest thorough review of body of article and discussions on talk page before providing comment. It is a new article and I'm a relatively new wikipedian and the more editors involved the better, to guide us on policy.Sonrisas1 (talk) 03:13, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Austro-Hungarian casualties in World War I

Nihlus1 has added a reliable source to several articles that says x% of Austro-Hungarian casualties occurred on certain fronts, and Nihlus has then applied these percentages to the (low) numbers for 'Total military deaths' and 'Military wounded' we have cited on World War I casualties#Casualties by 1914–18 borders, to calculate figures for those articles. Would this amount to original research? Diffs for the Eastern Front, Italian Front and Romanian Front.
Also the original sources for those numbers on WW1 casualties should really be included with the source Nihlus added, but that's another issue. Alcherin (talk) 17:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

That's Nihlus1, not me. Nihlus 18:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I've also notified them that this thread was open, as is required. Nihlus 18:20, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Probably should remember to read the instructions next time. Thanks! Alcherin (talk) 18:24, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't think so. Bodart lists proportional fatalities by front on the same page where he lists 1,213,368 military fatalities total (521,146 before his estimates for missing ones, as the data he was drawing from was incomplete). So, at least, the death figures should apply, e.g. ~728,000 dead on the Eastern Front (Bodart's 1,213,368 figure for deaths is basically the same as the 1,210,000 figure our pages cite per British data), given that the proportions and the numbers are from the same source. The prisoner figures come from other sources, so they're fine. I guess I can see the argument for wounded- Bodart doesn't list total wounded IIRC (I don't have the document in question, I copied the citation from another encyclopedia), so saying that a front had a certain number of wounded men based on his proportions but using a number from another source (the British data) is technically an extrapolation rather than something stated explicitly in any source, as Bodart never stated total wounded at 3.62 million and the British data never gave proportions of casualties by front (except for its estimates of the Italian and Balkan fronts from May 1918 to November 1918). But considering how well all the other numbers match up for those two sources (namely the death figures), I don't think it's much of one.--Nihlus1 (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Oh, I see where you were going with the deaths - I'd misread your explanation in the footnotes and thought you were dismissing Bodart's estimate.
Bodart's proportions apply to all casualties in general rather than specifically separated into killed and wounded, so taking that proportion and applying it to each separately strays dangerously close to WP:SYNTH and wouldn't necessarily be as accurate as explicitly given figures. I suppose it'd be fine to include such figures though so long as they are accompanied by a tilde to indicate approximation, a citation for the British data on wounded, and an explanation of how the wounded number was calculated as well where appropriate. Alcherin (talk) 01:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Insertion of original research and edit warring

User:Fundamental metric tensor has been constantly edit warring on the article Hindustan and the disambiguation page, insisting the two citations he provided support the statement equating the region of Hindustan with the Republic of India [7][8]. I have reverted slowly to avoid edit warring, but now I have backed away from the articles intro and dab page to avoid edit warring; especially after a warning was given to both of us, but he continues to insist it supports his statements. He also ignored my edit summaries and discussion on the talk page, only by asking me to discuss, which I already did and had to repeat myself. On the discussion page he also cites a number of companies based in India using the name "Hindustan XXX" but I have told him they do not count as reliable sources, not even close it you ask me.

Just a note to add, there is a section in the article that discusses other uses of the term, with one of them being the modern Republic of India. However, a distinction is still made between the Republic of India and the historic geographic term. This was already mentioned in the other usages section prior to my editing the article. I have also pointed him to WP:RS and WP:OR. From his discussions, it seems he is not familiar with policy on sourcing and original research and continues to ignore this. Having been on Wikipedia for 11 years but having barely 2,500 edits seems to confirm that he needs to be properly informed and corrected on sourcing policy.

I need a review of this ASAP as it's becoming tiresome. Thank you for reading--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 21:16, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I would first like to point out that a synonym for modern day Republic of India is an important and prevalent use of the term Hindustan. This can be verified by the entry for Hindustan for various English language dictionaries:

1) Merriam Webster:


3) Free Thesarus:

Additionally, pg 276 of the Lonely Planet book for India, translates "Hindustan Zindabad" as "Long Live India", as does this BBC article: I have provided other English language sources (Everett) where "Hindustan Zindabad" means "Long Live India". In scholastic usage, Arvind Sharma, in the journal Numen, defines Hindustan as India (Sharma, Arvind. "On Hindu, Hindustān, Hinduism and Hindutva." Numen 49.1 (2002): 1-36.) I think these, in sum, prove that not only is Republic of India an important meaning of Hindustan in English, it is likely to be one of the most common meanings encountered by English speakers and users. My edits reflected this usage, along with its other uses which refer to the entire Indian subcontinent, or its Northern part. User NadirAli, insists on reducing this important use of the term Hindustan to an ambiguous side note in the article, and emphasizing only the other uses. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 00:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Indeed, the Wikipedia policy is verifiability. WP:RS is a content guideline that explains what a reliable source means. FMT's edits are clearly verifiable, in fact, verifiable in the sources that were already present in the article. But I have also added more sources now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:50, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Agree... FMT's edits are not Original research. However, I think Nadir may have a point where it comes to UNDUE WEIGHT... while the article should mention the verifiable fact that "Hindustan" has (in modern usage) become synonymous with the Republic of India (at least in India itself), we should not give that modern usage UNDUE weight. The modern usage should be presented, but it needs to be presented in proper context of how the term has evolved through the years, and not overly stressed. Blueboar (talk) 14:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi Blueboar, neither of those two links directly support the statement they are citing that's why I see original research. TBH I don't even think the first book is a reliable source at all. Check them. I have addressed the source. The word Hindustan is a Persian word, referring to the historic term India (land of the Indus, not the Republic of India). Another problem is, scholars still distinguish between Republic of India and Hindustan- which is a geographic term. Neither of these two state Hindustan being the modern Republic of India. That BBC source is again referring to the popularization of the word to refer to Republic of India, which the article already mentions.----NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 18:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Is this WP:OR? Secularism in Turkey

Disputed content: [9]

Link to article: Secularism in Turkey

Issue: Primary sources, essay style writing, arguing a thesis - the sources do not seem to be discussing scholarly criticism that Turkey is secular, the argument seems to be pieced together from various sources as WP:SYNTH. The editor has reverted twice but without being able to show sources that contains this analysis

Related: The same editor is pushing the same WP:OR in this RfC Talk:Turkey#Secular - the same argument was advanced in a previous RfC by Tiptoethrutheminefield, who has since been indeffed as a sock of a disruptive editor in this topic area. Though this has been discussed multiple times now, no one has produced a source that puts forth this particular analysis. Seraphim System (talk) 04:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

On a procedueral note - this discussion was opened without any discussion on Talk:Secularism in Turkey. OP has returned from a brief retirement [10], and proceeded to blank approximately a third of Secularism in Turkey - the section critical of AKP's policies. The section could use some work in general - but blanket removal is a bit much.Icewhiz (talk) 05:53, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
I don't really support large removals in general but the entire thing is WP:OR ... it may have a place in another article, especially the table, but I did not see anything in the section that could be salvaged. I know Bektashi has a long history, but there are no sources that say "Turkey's secularism has been disputed because the following religions are not recognized by the state" - tables like this often have WP:OR problems. And detailed primary information about the agency's budget. I don't see any justification for the reverts besides the content being "critical of AKP policies." I'm not sure what AKP has to do with this, or why you just brought that up like it was meaningful but there have been a POV and WP:OR problem across multiple articles, and I want it to stop. Seraphim System (talk) 06:10, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Ronan McCrea (2010). Religion and the Public Order of the European Union. Oxford University Press. p. 212. ISBN 978-0-19-959535-8. Turkey, secularism has come to represent the control of religion by the state rather than the separation of religion and the state. --Moxy (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
That is not the same thing as saying Turkey is not secular, it describes how this was achieved - it is common to describe Turkey's secularism as "authoriation" but the content of the article goes much further then this, the source says Turkey is a secular republic, However Turkish secularism is different... I don't think this section can stay in based on that source you just gave without violating WP:SYNTH. This shouldn't be a discussion about my personal opinion, as much as it is a discussion about whether the academic sources support this theory based on analysis of recent developments (which is being pushed on several articles now). Seraphim System (talk) 20:44, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Point of the source was to show its not black and view was given. Just read the talk page that is full of rants about OR and such..........we need some expert editors there ASAP if this article wants to keep its GA status. I will look for more academic sources and take this weekend to do some sourcing clean up (with appropriate changes if need be. (PS dont care about infobox debate) .--Moxy (talk) 21:07, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Secularism in Turkey, which is what this post is about, is not a GA article. There are two separate articles Turkey and Secularism in Turkey but the WP:OR problem is overwhelming and similar on both articles, for example Talk:Secularism_in_Turkey#Turkey_-never_was_and-_is_not_a_Secular_State - the problem is obviously being compounded by sockpuppets like Tiptoethrutheminefield. I shouldn't have to "rant" - can we agree that this is WP:OR or not? Seraphim System (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Spectral Estimation of NMR Relaxation

This is a presentation of the work of Dr. Naugler, by a user with no other contributions, relguan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) - Naugler backwards. I removed some cites to OMICS, I am pretty confident this is not a policy-compliant article.

List of rampage killers

The page List of rampage killers clearly meets WP:SAL standards, but I feel there are multiple content issues on the page and on sub-pages. I'm not sure what should be done here. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:48, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Is it original research to call an orbit a "trajectory"?

Earlier this year, the Orbit page redefined an orbit from a "path" to a "trajectory". The justification for this change is unclear, since all cited sources explicitly use the word "path". No reason was given for the change at the time, but recent editors are backing the use of "trajectory", asserting that "Trajectory is more accurate" and "path seems unnecessarily less specific". Are they violating Wikipedia's prohibition on original research?

Yes they are according to NASA Darkness Shines (talk) 15:27, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
It's probably word preciseness and less an OR piece. As that NASA page states, an orbit is usually endless , while a trajectory describes a finite path. Both are "paths" of how a body moves around another, but in terms of WP and english, the terms seem otherwise interchangeable and not an OR issue. --MASEM (t) 15:30, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Novel interpretation and analysis at Rape myths

FYI: Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Rape myth#Improper tone and approach and the three short threads immediately below it (including a big deletion spree in the article); some additional editorial input (especially from NORN regulars) would be of value, since the discussion has turned circular and only involves three editors, but is rather important for this article. The first of these threads mostly focuses on NPOV concerns, but introduced the NOR one, which has developed in the threads after it. This is an old and kind of languishing article that recently got a lot of focused attention, but from too few parties.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  18:25, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Fox McCloud's legs - were they amputated?


The question is whether you can use artwork alone to argue whether a fictional character (Fox McCloud) had his legs removed despite statements from the Star Fox's programmer (Dylan Cuthbert) and the game's main producer (Shigeru Miyamoto) saying the legs were not amputated. Please see the thread at: Talk:Fox_McCloud#Legs_not_prosthetic WhisperToMe (talk) 07:15, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Nope, interpreting images to reach a contentious conclusion is definitely SYNTH. There are some clearly obvious things you can pull (he's a fox, he's orange-colored) but to try to argue his size on a box cover is due to amputation is waaaaay out of line. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Completely agree with Masem. Sergecross73 msg me 14:19, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Agree with Masem. Darkness Shines (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
A Wikipedia editor making this call would be OR (though perhaps stating they are metallic looking would be stating the obvious?). Relying on sources that make this call, possibly qualifying this (e.g. according to...), e.g. - [11] [12] [13] would not be OR.Icewhiz (talk) 14:40, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Ignoring the RS-ness of those sources, we'd first would have to state that "According to so-and-so, Fox's legs appear amputated..." with those sources. But let's add the fact that two of the people directly involved with the game's development have said otherwise - even if their statements come from over Twitter or other unreliable sources. It's the type of case that this shouldn't even be included unless a lot of RS carried the misinformation and we wanted to use the involved people's statements to dismiss that misinformation. But that's just not what's happening here, its a silly fringe theory that we don't need to give credence to. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
It's beyond a FRINGE theory - from a brief look here it seems this theory is all over the place - including a hip-hop artist who lost his foot referring to this. RSness for video games is an issue in general, and I agree that editors should be interpreting images by themselves, however this is a fan (and possibly Nintendo originally back in the 90s) theory of some weight.Icewhiz (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Having looked, I found [14] which is an RS for us and sufficient to mention the amputation being a fan theory that (as of 2013) never was commented on by Nintendo, but since debunked by the creators over Twitter. --MASEM (t) 16:20, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I wouldn't use debunk to describe fictional to begin with - it is difficult to debunk a fictional detail - however other than that we're agreed.Icewhiz (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Constructal law

This article looks to me to be arguing a case entirely from primary sources, largely by the person who coined the term (around 2/3 or more of the references). Incidentally, I think Mre env (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) is almost certainly closely associated with Adrian Bejan, or at least a massive fan, because that is his sole topic of interest. Guy (Help!) 22:08, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Is calculating a published percentage of a published number original research?

Query for deleted entry in

The final 2 sentences of the following quote were deleted. The editor said it contained original research. The 3% and 12% figures were from a cited document and in line with other estimates from other sources cited in the article. The 13,774 figure is from government reports (which perhaps I should have cited). I made a simple arithmetic calculation of these 2 non-controvertial numbers to estimate actual numbers of incidences per year. Is this really Original Research?

"They found that 12% of rape allegations fell into the broader definition of false accusations and that 3% of the false rape allegations were identified as malicious. There were 13,774 reported rapes in 2008, suggesting 413 instances of malicious false accusations of rape with a possibility of a further 1,240 instances falling in the "questionable" range determined from the 12% bracket. The authorities convict about 20 false accusers per year.[10]"

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