Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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  • "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia.
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mentioned wrong history on bhumihar

history on bhumihar written on the article is not correct. the content is abusive and sprading a wrong message in the community so please give your attention on this topic because wikipedia common for collectin the information. so you should give your attention on the credibility of wekipedia.

i am giving you the genetic report of NCBI on bhumihar , which prove that bhumihar and brahmin have same genetic. thank you link:- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:205:a0c2:55a7:f17a:3ace:1c33:9029 (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2018‎ (UTC)

Cowboy bedroll

The Cowboy bedroll page seems to have rather a lot of original research, particularly in "The traveling cowboy" subsection which spends quite a long time criticising a source without providing any supporting material. The editor who added this analysis seems to have done a lot of research themselves and I don't necessarily doubt their conclusions, but would the NOR policy cover this? It makes it very hard to take the article at face value because it's clear the editor has performed their own analysis and isn't citing their claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:51, 26 April 2018‎ (UTC)

Impact of the privatisation of British Rail

This article - - has the tone and content of a white paper for a think tank, rather than an encyclopedic entry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:19, 16 May 2018‎ (UTC)

State atheism - mostly WP:SYNTH?

This article designates real, factual events, under its State atheism title, as State atheism, yet next to none of the sources cited use this term. The article talk page records one contributor's analysis of one section of this article (since removed), which turned out to be almost completely WP:SYNTH, which is a good representation of the rest. No tertiary sources mention this term, nor present the facts therein in this way. I expect this to be tested.

To be clear, this article was written from a Christian Evangelist/Apologist 'atheist atrocities fallacy' POV, as an attempt to blame history's worst atrocities on 'atheism'; the article presents this accusation as 'common knowledge' without ever mentioning its POV-specific source (even in the description of the 'State athiesm' term's origin).

One section of this article, that concerning the Soviet-era 'Godless brigade' (Союз воинствующих безбожников - 'league of (the) militant Godless'), might be retainable, although 'State atheism' is not a precise or widely-used translation for describing it. In any case, this relatively minor (and short-lived) Soviet movement cannot be made to represent the entire Soviet-dictatorship 'effort'... and, again, no reliable sources do this.

I'd suggest reducing the article to this one section, and/or rewriting the article as the Christian Evangelist/Apologist accusation it is, but perhaps this should be the topic of a discussion. TP   09:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

An objective examination/input would be appreciated. TP   10:02, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Based on the comments in the past RFC at Talk:State atheism#RfC: What to do with this article?, opened by the same editor (and closed not in their favor), and other comments on that talk page, I get the distinct impression that this is WP:FORUMSHOPPING. I do not see evidence in the present article of Christian POV or blaming of these atrocities on atheism. Perhaps its just a matter of correlation that a state that becomes so authoritarian as to outlaw religion is likely to be a state that flexed its might against its population in other ways. The term "state atheism" seems to be covered in scholarship. I think the OP is confusing WP:SYNTH with the normal process of writing an article which involves bringing information from several sources together. SYNTH is more about particular misleading statements, so maybe OP could point out some they think are problematic. -- Netoholic @ 10:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, but my earlier ham-handed attempts to draw attention to the article doesn't mean that there's 'nothing to it'. In your 'scholarly' results, you'll see that most (if not all) of them are pro-religious authors and publications; 'State atheism' is a neologism used practically only by these (few, if any, reliable (sectarian) secondary sources use the term, yet even this fact is unmentioned in the article). And providing evidence of something absent is pretty difficult: how, other than indicating the article and its reference themselves, am I to indicate that the reference cited almost never contains the term 'State atheism'? By the title, the article would imply that everything under it 'is' State atheism. And, again, the talk-page synthesis of a now-removed section of the article is a good (and testable) demonstration of the method used throughout the article... perhaps it is not WP:SYNTH, per se, (perhaps WP:COATRACK? I don't WikiLawyer); all I know is that most of the article's claims (that the events indicated 'are' "State atheism") are unsupported by their sources. TP   12:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
It's not a neologism. It seems to have been in use ever since the practice has, though grown in recent decades probably along with professional study of it. I believe others on the talk page have made similar restorations of the neologism claim. --Netoholic @ 13:26, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Outside of its longer-standing use as a (rough) translation of "Godless brigade", it is... so, do you mean to say that the term is in wide use by non-sectarian, mainstream, reliable, secondary and tertiary sources? If it isn't, it's a neologism, and/or being used as one. Again, it's hard to provide evidence of it not being in such publications. And the rest of my point? TP   13:38, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
PS: I wasn't aware of that Google had an ngram analyser... thanks a million! TP   14:29, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
(after days of no reply) Well, unless more attention is brought to the article, it will be impossible to make changes there (it is 'protected' by its creators). What else (than here) can one suggest: an (other) RfC? TP   08:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Nope... when you have made several attempts (in different forums) to convince others that something is problematic, and no one agrees... then it is time to accept that you won’t change things by arguing further. Beating a dead horse is never the solution. Accept that you “lost” the argument, move on and work on other articles. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
If the points raised don't stand to testing, then we can talk about the 'methods' of the contributor bringing them up. Cheers. TP   20:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
You don't get to declare that your complaints haven't been resolved simply because no one succeeded in convincing you otherwise. Basically no one agrees with you. Consensus is firmly against you. Move on. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
More of the same.
So it's 'okay' to start a 'Bindidddle resistance' article, and fill it with sourced facts pertaining to, say, the Boer war, backed by sources none of which mention or use the term 'Bindiddle resistance'? That's what this article does.
And this sort of misuse of Wikipedia to spread 'truth' is most often organised (as when reason and verifiablility are absent, only !vote and ('gang'-)protectionism remain), so of course consensus is going to be against whoever attempts to challenge it. And this problem is common to many similar mid-to-low-level articles on Wikipedia... as even this page shows. TP   04:35, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Hello? TP   14:47, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
If there are multiple sources that describe elements of a "resistance" and attribute it to a "Bindiddle" group, then there does not need to be a specific source using the exact phrase to describe it or title it as a "Bindiddle resistance". Of course, if there is a different common name used by sources, we tend to prefer that, but such a name has to be demonstrable as the primary name for the term. bd2412 T 17:29, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
It's not even a question of exact phrase; the article would pin the listed atrocities (that sources attribute to communism, Soviet regime, etc.) on 'atheism'. This POV (accusation) can only be found in evangelist and apologist opinion pieces, but the article would have readers believe that this term (and its attribution) is widespread common knowledge and fact (thus mentioned in reliable second and third-source references)... it is not at all. TP   12:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Question about Italian football list

Hi everyone, first of all sorry for my English. Reading List of most expensive association football transfers, I was reminded of something I would ask of you. What do you think about the list / evolution / progression of the most expensive transfers of Serie A, but starting from 1930s-1940s (ie the birth of professionalism)? Obviously each transfer will be associated with at least one historical and verified source. I tell you that a "global" list (for example from all over Europe) of transfers is practically impossible to draw, because we should cross the historical sources of each nation (if there are any) and then compare the different currencies! If it is to be drawn up, it can only be done by country in my opinion. I would to know if an article like this (basically a list) is or is not an original research. I tell you that there are serious sources on the web about this ranking/list concerning only Serie A; however, there is no complete source that starts from the beginning of professionalism. Thanks! -- (talk) 20:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC) moved from Wikipedia talk:No original research by user:Meters

Note that this IP's first two attempts to make this edit were blocked because they tripped the "Fuerdai vandal" edit filter. Meters (talk) 21:05, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
And a few minutes before that a named user's edits were similarly blocked by the edit filter. I'm not familiar with the Fuerdai vandal so I don't know if these were false positives as they claimed. Meters (talk) 21:14, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
My edits were blocked because I've write a phrase that I cannot report here, because it's impossible to introduce it by filter block action. The phrase is Wel, I would to know (change Wel to Well and try yourself: the filter blocks you). -- (talk) 21:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Meters, Wikipedia says: Be polite, and welcoming to new users. You're treating me like I'm a bandit and you are a cop. I don't understand really. I believe you are an immature person. -- (talk) 21:24, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
If it was a false positive there's no problem (other than a suggestion not to keep attempting to make a blocked edit, and not to edit war over adding off topic comments to a talk page). As I said, I don't know anything about t that vandal. I left the comments because I moved the material here and I don't want any blow back if it turns out that this post is part of a vandal's work. I did not call call you a vandal. The edit filter designed to catch a particular vandal's edits caught your edits.. And now that you have descended to personal attacks, I'm done. Please read WP:NPA. Meters (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Was it necessary to report what I did or not? I'm here simply for a question. I'm not here to be followed by a shadow telling me what to do, what I do not have to do in my every move. -- (talk) 21:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
The challenging issue is most expensive. Is a transfer the most expensive of the year because a source (newspaper, magazine, sports almanac) said it is? If that's the case, no problem. Is it the most expensive of the year because we haven't found a source for a more-expensive transfer? That's where we're hitting the realm of original research. —C.Fred (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your answer. Of course, for first years (1930s-40s) we need a clear newspaper source reference. I think for next transfers we don't necessary need a source tell us this is the new record, but it's necessary having a source tell us the transfer cost is higher than the record at that time. In any case, I'm pretty sure the newspapers should also clearly state that this is the new record, but it could also happen that for some transfers this statement is not reported, but we can reconstruct it. Am I right? -- (talk) 22:54, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Not necessarily, provided I understand your question correctly. Suppose transfer 2 is higher than transfer 1, which previously held the record. I believe your question is whether we can assume that transfer 2 is a new record and report it as such, because we have a source saying it is higher. The answer is no, because there could have been a transfer 3, which took place between transfers 1 and 2, that was higher than both of them. Then transfer 3 would have broken the record, and transfer 2 would have done nothing. So no, we can't assume that the second one broke the record just because it was higher than a previous record. We need a source saying that the particular transfer in question was the one that broke the previous record. Compassionate727 (T·C) 02:10, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Clear. Thanks. -- (talk) 09:37, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Reproductions of studies or other such publications

Over recent weeks a number of articles have been created which are based on previously published papers issued under public license. The Wikipedia reproductions follow the line of thought of those papers, the flow, reproduce entire passages of text. Examples include: Media independence (for which I have raised an AfD), Human rights and encryption, Online youth radicalization, Online hate speech, Multi-stakeholder governance, Media pluralism. Those articles are very closely aligned to previously published works, in this case published by UNESCO. As they are under free license and properly attributed, there are no immediate copyvio concerns. I do believe, however, there are a number of policies and guidelines that are actually being touched on: WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:NOTPAPERS.

  • WP:OR: the policy stipulates that Wikipedia is not the place to publish original research. The key question here is, does WP:OR get resolved plainly by the fact that an entire body of work has been published by a government/organisation/person elsewhere or does it persist as OR by proxy if the work reproduced on Wikipedia remains close to the original work (as it does in this case)
  • WP:NPOV: Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written from a neutral perspective, incorporating all available views and give them appropriate weight. There are two concerns here: 1) if an article is very close to one published work (even though that has many secondary references) can the Wikipedia article even be perceived as neutral given it is aligned to ONE original synthesis and 2) how to assess if articles written by orgs/govts etc are inherently neutral or have systemic bias (as anything from official sources is always a compromise of political processes at the time). The transcription of those articles into Wikipedia may also have certain WP:COI elements.
  • WP:NOTPAPERS: this stipulates that Wikipedia should not a depository of scientific papers. In this case, not the entire paper was published, there has been some redaction. However, it remains close.

Most of those articles are very complex and sometimes on sensitive political/society topics and an individual assessment - especially about inherent neutrality (or lack thereof) - may be a complex and time consuming task for the community of laypeople. If it is believed there are no OR or NOTPAPERS concerns, the NPOV side remains. As a proper review of such papers should take place prior live publication, it may be a thought to require sending such articles through AfC similar to COI editing. I appreciate the thoughts of the community. Many thanks. pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 09:44, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research does not apply to any sourced text, as it mostly prevents Wikipedia editors from publishing their own ideas on any subject matter.: "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented. ... The prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source, even if not actually attributed. The verifiability policy says that an inline citation to a reliable source must be provided for all quotations, and for anything challenged or likely to be challenged—but a source must exist even for material that is never challenged."

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is of far more valid concern here. Due to our requirement for an "impartial tone", most texts have to be modified to avoid laudatory or disparaging terms.: "Wikipedia describes disputes. Wikipedia does not engage in disputes. A neutral characterization of disputes requires presenting viewpoints with a consistently impartial tone; otherwise articles end up as partisan commentaries even while presenting all relevant points of view. Even where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article. The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." Dimadick (talk) 10:48, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Just to make clear, the content added from UNESCO is not from scientific papers, they are all secondary and tertiary sources and include a lot of academic references, so WP:NOTPAPERS doesn't seem relevant. The content is not being added to articles about the organisation, but sharing the knowledge from the organisation in its areas of expertise. John Cummings (talk) 14:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
However they have been brought into a certain context by the organisation that compiled this synthesis (in this case the UNESCO). So strictly speaking the article title should be "Media independence as viewed by UNESCO". While I regard the UN/UNESCO highly, there will be many people on this planet who don't agree with that certain view of the world. A different example. Consulting firms regularly churn out all sorts of papers. I have just downloaded a random paper from one of the big 4 consulting firms. This happens to be an overview of next generation automotive technology (autonomous cars etc). Very similar to the UNESCO papers, it is primarily based on a review of other sources. So (copyrights aside), would we be happy to convert this into an article about autonomous cars (again, putting aside this article already exists)? pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 16:02, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
None of the articles that have been created are locked and improvements can be made by other people, the articles contain a significant number of references (40 being the lowest I'm aware of). As with any reuse of existing text on Wikipedia, the consulting firm's text in your example as the basis of an article would be assessed on the same criteria as any other Wikipedia contributors content. John Cummings (talk) 16:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
This is true for every Wikipedia article, however we regularly don't admit articles that are closely aligned or where the author may have vested interests. UNESCO and the UN in general are primarily political organisations with an agenda to form opinions on certain topics. They are not neutral - see UNESCO#Controversies and Criticism of the United Nations. The fact that the articles appear to have diverse sources is secondary if the selection of sources and the line of thought of the article is aligned to ONE "master source". We don't know how those sources have been selected, if they are indeed independent of UNESCO in this case, etc. Those are all the same concerns that I would have with any "promo piece". pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 07:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
These articles are tertiary publications summarizing the relevant literature. Consequently had they been written by Wikipedia editors, the articles would have met no original research, reliable sourcing and neutral point of view policies. The only conceivable reason for not allowing them would be notability, which should be carried out on a case by case basis. TFD (talk) 06:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)


Original research is likely here regarding Al-Azhar in the article. Would like input regarding this RFC [1]

Is it original research to cite the plot of a TV show to refute an incorrect statement made about that plot by a third party?

See the discussion here: Talk:Manhunt: Unabomber#Unsourced addition. This is the addition that was removed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:52, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think the source implies that the show said Fitzgerald was present at the arrest. It merely states that fact to say that Fitzgerald's role was not that major. So you can rewrite the text to reflect the source. To answer your general question, when secondary sources misrepresent primary sources, we should not use them, or at least not repeat erroneous statements. TFD (talk) 03:13, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. Read literally, Stejskal's statement is criticizing the show for focusing on Fitzgerald, and not for any alleged factual inaccuracies. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:32, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Agreed that the content of the source should be reflect the claims explicitly made in the source. But there are some problems. 1) The source does not seem to discuss a plot point and relevance would be the only thing to look at and also 2) the commentary edit is clearly a wikipedia editor's interpretation without a source. #2 is OR for sure. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 07:13, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Is this Original Research?

I was looking for the Metropolitan area of Trivandrum city. It's hard to find. Then i came across this source here: It's published by the Directorate of Census Operations of Government of India. So it's a reliable source and it has the Metropolitan area data of the city in it. The only problem is that they listed the area of each census towns separately. The total area is not in the document. So you need to add the total area manually. Is that original research? I have no connection with the source. So is there any way that i can use this source in the article, by using reference notes or something? Thanks in advance. AG47 Talk 09:08, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

It's just basic arithmetic (addition). WP:CALC says basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers are allowed here. But I need another editor's opinion. Here is a document with the total addition done. (here). All the data except the total added figure is in the census source given above. AG47 Talk 10:40, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
That just seems like basic addition. Provided that maybe a footnote is provided I see no issues with compliance with WP:CALCGaruda28 (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
I am having trouble reading through the source. If it identifies which municipalities constitute the metropolitan area and separately lists the population for each one, then adding them is simple arithmetic. But if the list of municipalities comes from somewhere else, then it is synthesis. Different sources may draw different boundaries for the metropolitan area. TFD (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
@TFD Yes it's confusing. But it's easy. It's a 450 page document. But all the data we need is on one single page of the document. It's page 30 of the handbook. (page 37 of the pdf file). The full data we need is under the heading "URBAN". The population and area is also given in the same page. You just need to add the census towns and municipalities under Thiruvananthapuram UA together (like i did in the document given). In India, urban area is calculated by adding adjacent municipalities and Census towns with the city. So you need to know the census tows to do this. It is also available in the same website (here) and it's also available in the state's (Kerala's) census handbook (here (194 MB document). You don't need to take any data from these documents. All the data (population and area) are available in the source i given. The different boundaries is not a problem here as it is not from different sources. It's from the same website and the links to these data is from here. This is why i asked is there any way to use this source by using reference notes or something? Thanks. AG47 Talk 12:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. The previous page (29) shows totals for population. I don't mean to be argumentative, but why do you assume that the urban districts are all part of the metropolitan area while the rural districts are not? There could be rural districts surrounded by urban ones and vice versa. TFD (talk) 14:59, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
@TFD No. page 29 is about the marginal workers. See the heading in that page. Page 30 is the total population. :) In India, the Urban Agglomeration or Urban area is the Metropolitan area. It is defined by the government as "urban agglomeration is a continuous urban spread constituting a town and its adjoining outgrowths (OGs), or two or more physically contiguous towns together with or without outgrowths of such towns." So, there may be some rural areas surrounded by urban ones. But they are not added to the metropolitan area of the city. The census towns (CT) are urban. The government selects the adjoining census towns under Thiruvananthapuram metro region. So it is already defined by the government. To see the census towns defined by the government, see: [2]. The total population of Thiruvananthapuram Metropolitan area is 1,679,754. The government published this total population but they didn't published the total area. That's why I needed to add the areas from the source i given (page 30). You can see the total population figure here.
If you add the census towns which comes under the Thiruvananthapuram metro region form the page 30, you will get the total area and the same population figure (1,679,754). So, basically, the census towns come under the metropolitan region is defined by the government. The total population of Thiruvananthapuram metro region is also published. The only thing remaining is the area and it can be found by just adding the area of census towns, which come under the metropolitan region. It also matches with the population figure. Thanks :) AG47 Talk 15:35, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

reading academic citations

In this edit, Prokaryotes (talk · contribs) seems to conclude that the oldest paper cited in a 2015 paper for a certain point necessarily reflects first study on that point. I don't think there is text in either article that make the claim of "first". Admittedly I quickly skimmed both and could have missed text. I attempted to tag it "failed verification" for this reason, but Prokaryotes just reverted the tag and pointed to the fact its the oldest cite in the later paper and in the edit summary states there aren't any older papers. That sounds like a leap to a conclusion combined with original research to me. What do you think? Some otherwise uninvolved eds who watch for OR would be useful here. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

This is how scientific papers are written, to clear things up, a Yale article noted, "In 1969, Russian climatologist Mikhail Budyko developed a simple energy-balance theory of climate that captured a key feature of polar amplification." prokaryotes (talk) 23:57, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I haven't looked at any of the papers, but judging entirely on what has been presented here, I can note: 1) If a papers says that MD developed a certain model in 1969 it doesn't automatically follow that he's the first person to have done so; 2) If his 1969 paper is earliest one cited in a text that is a comprehensive historical overview of a certain topic then this might indeed suggest that he's the first to have done any influential work on that topic, but it doesn't show it; claiming so is a textbook case of OR. If the person's work has been influential then there's bound to be sources out there that explicitly say so. – Uanfala (talk) 00:21, 3 August 2018 (UTC)


The National Science Foundation-funded study appears in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 45 years after atmospheric scientists Mikhail Budyko and William Sellers hypothesized that the Arctic would amplify global warming as sea ice melted. or

"The effect of solar radiation variation on the climate of the Earth," published in 1969 was one of the first theoretical investigation of the ice-albedo feed back mechanism

Notice that there are two authors noted in the literature for this mechanism, those are Mikhail Budyko and William D. Sellers, because they published both on the same topic. However, Sellers submitted his publication two months after Budyko (six months later published), which you can read from the studies header publication dates - other authors (I came across three references in other publication) cite always Budyko first. On the related pages, I pointed this out mentioned both, ie. Polar amplification and History of climate change science.prokaryotes (talk) 01:49, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Uanfala wrote "If his 1969 paper is earliest one cited in a text that is a comprehensive historical overview of a certain topic then this might indeed suggest that he's the first to have done any influential work on that topic"
This review cites Budyko first

He published an influential article in the English‐language journal Tellus in 1969 (Ref 51) which advanced a simple energy balance model highlighting the sensitive nature of the earth's contemporary climate. The model suggested that relatively small variations in the level of incoming solar radiation could have marked consequences for the earth's heat balance leading to periods of significant cooling or warming via its effect on sea ice. His ideas displayed overlap with the work of the US physicist, William D. Sellers who was based at the University of Arizona. While more complex than Budyko's approach, Seller's energy balance model (Ref 52) was similar in many respects, and their shared emphasis on the possibility of a ‘runaway positive feedback’ linked to the global climate system attracted a great deal of attention prokaryotes (talk) 02:02, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

The first reference from above cite reads, "Sea ice loss affects Arctic temperatures through the surface albedo feedback (Budyko 1969; Sellers 1969), again mentioning Budyko first. prokaryotes (talk) 02:05, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I went ahead and just removed the suggestion that he was the first to publish on this topic, because this is getting way too complicated, and I really don't have the time to defend this super close timing issue here. If he earns the honor to be first, because he submitted his papers first, then I guess someone else will point this out in the future. prokaryotes (talk) 02:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Good call. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Technically he was first, the question is if he shares this with Sellers together. prokaryotes (talk) 02:54, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Hadith collection headings - primary source or secondary source?


Would the headings above the hadiths on be considered a primary source or secondary source? My opinion is that:

  • The actual matn (Prophetic narration) are primary sources.
  • The chapter headings are not narrations, rather notes by Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj (hadith compiler), and are secondary sources and it is allowed to derive rulings from them without violating WP:OR. Your thoughts on this?

Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:47, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

The specific edit you would like to make would allow for a better answer but based on what you have said: That site seems to be a collection of English translations of primary source material. Regardless, headings are not secondary sources. A heading is a label, it does not provide analysis, synthesis or interpretation. The sole thing it may be useful for is, assuming WP:DUE,WP:WEIGHT, etc. one may be able to say –'Author X has chosen to group (hadiths) together (as)' – but only if the source has some commentary on why they were so grouped.
I am not sure what you mean by "derive rulings from them". It sounds like you intend a construction like Because (some heading says) and (some other heading says) we may therefore say (something not said in source). This is expressly the type of thing intended by not allowing original research. WP:NOR prohibits a Wikipedia editor from doing any form of analysis, synthesis or interpretation of source material. Whether that material is nominally primary, secondary or tertiary is not relevant. Jbh Talk 00:09, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
For example, there is a chapter titled "Chapter 200: IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PLASTER THE GRAVE OR CONSTRUCTING ANYTHING OVER IT". If I were to write in a Wikipedia article "It is prohibited to build shrines over graves in Islam.", citing that heading, does this violate WP:OR? – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 21:40, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
At most it might be possible to say that particular scholar has determined it to be so but that would only be possible if there were no nuance in the chapter i.e. some grave coverings may be haram but others only makruh. All in all I would advise against it. Also, I would regardless of technicalities consider any centuries old compendium of hadith to be WP:PRIMARY because the interpretations, accepted and rejected isnads etc will vary from scholar to scholar and the acceptance of a scholar's work from school to school so it is very unlikely any universal claim could be made from such. Then there are the various ways others have interpreted things as insight and understanding changes through the centuries. Not to mention the differences of acceptance between Sunni and the various Shi'a sects or even the various differences in Sunni interpretations. For instance Sufi shrines are an obvious counter-example to the statement 'shrines are forbidden in Islam'
In short it is not possible to make a universal claim of something being true for all of Islam based on the work of a single work, no matter how respected. I am sure there are various scholarly books which discuss these things. Jbh Talk 22:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your input! Face-smile.svg So, is it permitted to quote the chapter title in the following manner without deriving rulings and to abide by WP:OR: 'Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj placed three ahadith under the following heading: "Chapter 200: IT IS FORBIDDEN TO PLASTER THE GRAVE OR CONSTRUCTING ANYTHING OVER IT".'? Furthermore, I have found some reliable resources that cover this topic from the prohibitionist viewpoint but would like to explore all sourcing options. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 04:58, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
Bump, @Jbhunley:. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@Batreeq: The best I can do is give you my opinion above without seeing the specific edit, in context, in an article. You can ping me from the article talk page but I will not be around much for several days or maybe weeks so my response will likely be slow. I would suggest that the use of headings be limited to discussion of the specific work. There are also issues of WP:DUE and WP:WEIGHT to consider ie why does it matter and why does it matter that it is the case in this work as opposed to others. Jbh Talk 22:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@Jbhunley: Okay, thanks! – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 22:58, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Looking for outside opinion on these edits

On Talk:Lachlan_(name)#Origins I've tried to explain the concept of original research to another editor. I've reached out to WP:Third Opinion where another editor agreed with my assessment. I'm now reaching out here for further opinions.

Background. The article is about the name Lachlan, an Anglicised form of the Gaelic Lachlann. A variant of this Gaelic name is Lachann. Another editor's own view—unsupported by any source—is that the Gaelic names are entirely different, and that in Scotland the true Gaelic form of Lachlan is Lachann. As a result, the editor has progressively skewed the article by inserting synthesised arguments and personal research to prove this point of view.

In this edit, the editor makes note of a proverb he's cherry-picked from a nineteenth-century book, and asserts that it is an "old bardic proverb" and evidence that Lachann was "particularly popular" in the Hebrides. The source of the quotation gives no context whatsoever for the proverb. It's only the editor's opinion that this primary source proves anything about the name's popularity.

In the same edit, the editor takes it upon himself to critique the coverage of the names Lachann and Lachlann given by a reliable source (Black's Surnames of Scotland) because it "begs further scrutiny". The editor crafts a counterpoint to Black about a clan chief named Tearlach, and then criticises the layout of Black's book. The editor further notes more proverbs he's gathered, and adds his own speculation about how the date of these proverbs is "unknown", adding "Whatever the date, it is clear it was not written by a Maclean or Maclean bard, who would never denigrate the family of their patron. It is also unlikely the Macleans would use the degraded version Lachann if it originated from a verse that insulted them, but they had no qualms using it". So the editor has synthed a fact about a chief's name, and added some other critical and irrelevant observations about a reliable source. He's further combined this with personal conjecture about the age and context of more primary sources.

With this edit, the editor cites a Gaelic dictionary that was published one hundred and ninety years ago. It neither mentions the names Lachlann or Lachann. It does however give the word "lach" as "a duck, a wild duck, a drake", which the editor uses as evidence that the name Lachann must mean "Wild Ducks". As a result of this concocted etymology, the editor concludes "There is no evidence or suggestion that it is related to the Gaelic name Lachainn/Lachann". The editor also throws in an out-dated (and incorrect) etymology for the Gaelic name Eachann. So the editor has again mined another out-dated book, this time as way to create his own preferred etymology, and tops it off with more synth about another name, all as a means to prove his point of view.

And now the editor's cherry-picking nineteenth-century editions of parish registers, privy council records, prisoner lists, and tenant lists. So more personal research mined from primary sources, mixed together with the editor's own observations and analysis.

My efforts to explain "original research" on the talkpage have failed. The article has become a badly formatted mess of bizarre proverb-based rebuttals, personal speculation, concocted/incorrect etymologies, and an undue collection of muster rolls and lists of random MacLean clansmen! It's almost funny how obviously unacceptable it is. But it's so frustrating when you're alone with someone who refuses to get the point.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:41, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Hi User:Brianann MacAmhlaidh. I see that the situation is a bit complex. Perhaps next time, you can condense the request to edits and lack of sourcing or synthesis of a source. This will help others get you responses more promptly.
Now onto the case, original research (OR) involves claims without sources and synthesis (SYN) involves combining sources to make claims not found in the sources or making claims not explicitly mentioned in the sources. Some of the conjecture from User:Theirishslave does look like SYN with quite a bit of explaining by User:Theirishslave. Using the census (bad source either way for this topic) and dictionaries and making combinations of arguments that are not explicitly made by the sources is definitely OR and/or SYN. In wikipedia, all non-obvious claims must be sourced and the sources must make the connections and arguments explicitly.
I would recommend that you ask for quotes in the sources so that everything is transparent. That way you and User:Theirishslave can see if a source actually says the explict claim or not. If the sources do not make the explicit claims or arguments that User:Theirishslave is putting in the article, then they do not belong in the article. Hope this helps. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 19:02, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree that the request should have been more concise. As I understand it, another editor wants to add claims based on their analysis of information, without a reliable source that makes the same conclusion. That is original research. TFD (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks guys. Sorry about the wall of text. I was just woundup with frustration at that point. The article and talkpage have been quiet since.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 00:29, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Age of consent in Belgium

I'm not sure if this is quite the right board, but I couldn't find a board for verifiability questions.

At the article Minimum legal ages in Belgium, someone recently made an edit "updating" the age of consent in Belgium from 16 to 14. Has it really been lowered recently? I googled "'age of consent' belgium" and couldn't find a definitive answer. Given that this was a mobile edit by an ISP (2600:1700:62E0:6670:3C2C:C9B6:73B1:796B) I'm particularly leery of this edit. Has there been a real change in the law, or is this just willful vandalism? I'm stumped. Khemehekis (talk) 05:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

[3]. Unless the change in the law is so new that Belgium's government hasn't updated its online criminal code, age of consent is still 16. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:23, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for finding that site, Someguy1221. It's cool that you can read Flemish! I also checked out your userpage and enjoyed reading your thoughts on vandalism. Khemehekis (talk) 05:35, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I should update that with some new thoughts - most of it is 10 years old. Also, literally while typing this response, I notice there is actually an update to the criminal code on its way to change that law: [4]. I didn't find any sources actually giving a date for when this would happen. Some speak as if the law has changed, but some from the same day or later say the law will change. But actually this is a Romeo and Juliet law, not a strict change to the age of consent. The newspapers mention that "some laws will change, others will be removed". If the government made an official announcement, I haven't found it. I'd say the sources I can find are too vague to serve as sources, so it wasn't vandalism or trolling, but that content should remain as is for now. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
[5] [6] [7] An agreement on the reform of Book 2 of the Penal Code was announced on 20 July by the Federal Government of Belgium's Council of Ministers, as planned in the 2014 coalition agreement (page 126), so "for now" there is a political majority consensus on the wording that will eventually be proposed to Parliament, after the summer recess. General age of consent would be harmonized to 16 years, reduced to 14 years if the age difference is less than 5 years and if there's no position of authority involved. But elections are nearby, 26 May 2019 at the latest: you're spot on in saying that it's WP:Too soon. Wakari07 (talk) 16:43, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
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