Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis.
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  • "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia.
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Gajendra Singh Shekhawat

Lot of original contents without any reference in the article.

mentioned wrong history on bhumihar

history on bhumihar written on the article is not correct. the content is abusive and sprading a wrong message in the community so please give your attention on this topic because wikipedia common for collectin the information. so you should give your attention on the credibility of wekipedia.

i am giving you the genetic report of NCBI on bhumihar , which prove that bhumihar and brahmin have same genetic. thank you link:-

Atari Jaguar original research and coi

I am asking for advice on a user who gives the impression, through edits over a series of articles, to be using OR. They also have a COI issue which they refuse to address but I will take that up separately.

I have deleted numerous additions they have made as, on investigating the citations, there is no, or very low quality evidence to support their assertions.

Article in question is here. [1]

Here is an example deletion I made to article, please note the justifications I have given. There has been in excess of 20k of text I have deleted from this one article [2]

I raised the issue in the associated talk - [3]

His response to this was effectively "Meh" and an attempt to claim I had an agenda. This is true in one way, I have an agenda to correct blatent errors.

The same concerns on OR and COI were raised in a different article[4], as well as associated talk[5] , and were also denied with no evidence offered.[6]

When I corrected errors in first article the same user then went to the referenced titles articles and inserted the deleted citations and assertions in those.[7]

I have also noticed they have deleted the external tag for the cancelled games article while inserting it in all other games he believes existed so as to remove it from the category. [8]


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Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling

TBBC is insistent on adding a line into the Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling article which is unsupported. They are stating that every wrestler who appeared on the show has been elected to the WWE Hall of Fame however when I removed their WP:OR, they added it back with just a generic link to all WWE wrestler pages which I again removed. They attempted to add it back with [1] however I explained to them that this is the exact definition of WP:SYNTH. They are refusing the discuss the issue and are ignoring comments I have left for them on their talk page. They have been blocked for similar styles of edit warring before. - GalatzTalk 13:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

I have indeed discussed the issue with you, cited it like you said but you said it reverts ANOTHER Wikipedia policy. So that just makes me feel that I can't follow one Wikipedia policy without violating another. Incidentally no other user has reverted my edits, just you--TBBC (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I have no idea what you are trying to say, that was terribly worded. What policy are you following while violating another. You are simply just violating policies, WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:3RR. What policy are you following by adding information not supported by the references? - GalatzTalk 14:21, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I add sources (like the official link to the WWE Hall of Fame website which shows all the superstars to appear on Hulk Hogan's Rock 'N' Wrestling)But then you say that goes against this WP:SYNTH policy. So I figured I can't follow one policy without violating another.--TBBC (talk) 14:25, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
No, that does not support your claim. You are sourcing it to something that does not support what you are writing. Therefore you are NOT following WP:RS by linking to that. You need a second source to put the two pieces together, which is WP:SYNTH, as I have explained to you multiple times. - GalatzTalk 14:28, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Well the official website of the WWE hall of fame also has a site dedicated to the cartoon, so how about just add the WWE website as a whole--TBBC (talk) 14:29, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Nope, it does not work that way. - GalatzTalk 14:34, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

See, and there's no website that can be considered a reliable source that'll state that. And yet everyone who looks at that page will see every WWE employee to be featured in this cartoon are in the WWE hall of fame, but YOU (no one else) are so insistent we just ignore that fact.--TBBC (talk) 14:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Judging by [2] there are fewer than 30 people who follow the page, that could be as few as 5 people, no one knows, so that is not very surprising. Just because no one reverts something that violates a policy doesn't make it right. - GalatzTalk 14:42, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Actually the sentence has been changed from WWE employee to character, so there's another person who didn't see a problem with it.--TBBC (talk) 15:00, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
And that makes it automatically void of following policies? - GalatzTalk 15:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
No, the fact that we're all suppose to pretend that such an interesting tidbit about the show which really helps define the Rock 'N' Wrestling Era until a website that is a reliable source points it out does. You're not going to get a gold medal for following Wikipedia policy, which you're so intent on you know.--TBBC (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
No matter how interesting you find it, you clearly are finally admitting it is violating WP policy. There is no exception due to something being interesting to WP policy. - GalatzTalk 15:10, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
But you made following Wikipedia policy pointless as following one violates another.--TBBC (talk) 15:11, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Your edit follows ZERO policies, as has been pointed out to you several times. - GalatzTalk 15:14, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Ok then, so it's settled, I'll add citations to the official hall of fame website and the official photo gallery and not violate the original research, but unfortunately violate the whole no synth policy.--TBBC (talk) 15:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

No that is you violating WP:OR as WP:SYNTH is a subsection under OR, it is the method of OR you are violating. - GalatzTalk 15:23, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Then in that case, it's impossible not to violate WP:OR--TBBC (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

For what you want to add, yes, it appears that way. That is exactly the point as to why we are here. - GalatzTalk 15:30, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
The WWE Hall of Fame is for professional wrestlers. Hulk Hogan's Rock 'n' Wrestling starred cartoon characters. Cartoons characters are different from professional wrestlers. They do far more dangerous work, for far less pay and with far fewer complaints if we ignore their contributions to the business. A smart wrestling promoter would hire only cartoon characters if he could get away with it, but they can't, and neither can TBBC. It's just incredible. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:29, April 19, 2018 (UTC)
Professional wrestlers and cartoon characters are similarly not employees, by the way. One is an independent contractor, the other intellectual property. Spread the word! InedibleHulk (talk) 23:35, April 19, 2018 (UTC)
And here's a fact for fact two, 1) you're not funny and 2) no one likes a smart arse--TBBC (talk) 12:08, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
I actually found it funny, and I love smart asses. Just an FYI - GalatzTalk 01:17, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for clearing that up. But if I can be serious for a moment, that wasn't me being funny. The need to plainly explain why people aren't cartoons is just a naturally absurd premise. This is the dry, text-based equivalent of Goldberg wandering into a blonde wig or leg-humping midget backstage; anybody could've gotten that pop, just like anybody could have gotten over like he did if booked to never lose.
Any human, anyway. The Dic Hulkster was (literally) canned after going a mere 26-0. That's not to bury the imaginary guy, but Terry Bollea did much more, in-universe and out, which is why we treat him (and Hillbilly and Koko) with the respect we do on Wikipedia. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:03, April 27, 2018 (UTC)

Cowboy bedroll

The Cowboy bedroll page seems to have rather a lot of original research, particularly in "The traveling cowboy" subsection which spends quite a long time criticising a source without providing any supporting material. The editor who added this analysis seems to have done a lot of research themselves and I don't necessarily doubt their conclusions, but would the NOR policy cover this? It makes it very hard to take the article at face value because it's clear the editor has performed their own analysis and isn't citing their claims.

Social Causation VS Downward Drift

The article Social Causation VS Downward Drift is what I would call an essay. The bulk of the article consists of presentations of views expressed in a variety of sources, all of them cited. But it seems to be that the very nature of the article is to choose what sources are relevant to the purported debate and to reach some conclusions.

I worked through the removal of conclusions and remarks that were clearly superimposed by the author on the source material. What's left is largely factual, in the sense of "It's true that these sources say these things", but I can't help thinking that the very nature of this article is still a WP:Synthesis piece. I'm hesitating to submit it for AFD, though. I thought I'd step back and see if anyone can take a fresh look and let me know whether this is a genuine Wikipedia article or something that should be somewhere else. Largoplazo (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree that this article is WP:SYNTH that reads like an essay. The creator acknowledges that it was a class assignment. Such "compare and contrast" text belongs in the article for the phenomenon being explained, e.g., Causes of mental disorders, not in its own article. (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Probably should be merged to other articles. If kept as an article, the capital VS definitely needs to go. Change to "versus" or even better "and". —DIYeditor (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Impact of the privatisation of British Rail

This article - - has the tone and content of a white paper for a think tank, rather than an encyclopedic entry.

The Black Book of Communism

This book is a collective volume that combines the works of several experts in their fields. According to our criteria, each chapter is a secondary source. In addition to the chapters, the Book is supplemented with an introduction, where no independent research have been presented. The introduction draws conclusions from some data taken from BB chapters.

Is the introduction a secondary or tertiary source? --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

According to our article The Black Book of Communism, the introduction to the book received disproportionate criticism for its sweeping generalizations. In my view, it would be best to cite individual chapters instead of the introduction. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The book is a secondary academic source, and a highly reliable one, unlike the wikipedia article about it. Just as any scientific review, the book (including the Introduction) uses a a number of other published sources. The Introduction was written by one of this book authors Stéphane Courtois who also served as an editor. This is basically just another chapter of the book, similar to the last chapter, also written by the same author. Anything reliably published by Courtois should be a treated as an RS. But in this case we are talking about a highly cited academic book published and republished in many countries. My very best wishes (talk) 17:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
My very best wishes, with due respect, I would like to see a third opinion. We can continue our dispute on the talk page. However, I would like to see something except your opinion that demonstrate the Courtois' work was an independent research. As far as I know, this statement is blatantly false. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Which statement was "blatantly false"? That work by Courtois was research? My very best wishes (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Yes. How many references does it contain? However, if you think it is not a blatant lie, then you must admit that is is the worst part of the book, and it that case it should not be used at all.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:17, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
How many references? This 1st chapter ("Crimes of Communism") cites 34 other secondary and primary sources (see pages 760, 761). Did you read the book? My very best wishes (talk) 19:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
To be completely honest, I agree with almost everything in this chapter. This is not surprising because it was written by such an expert on the subject. This book is classic, just as certain books by James Watson, Linus Pauling or Richard Feynman, but only in very different fields. My very best wishes (talk) 18:29, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Whether you WP:LIKEIT doesn't really matter Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
It's not that I like it (actually, it is difficult to read - too much condensed info). I am telling the book is unique in its field in terms of the depth and the coverage of the subject. My very best wishes (talk) 20:09, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Feel free to provide a reliable source that criticizes Watson's works as provocative.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I've just realised I posted this question on the wrong noticeboard. Does anybody think I should repost it on WP:RSN?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah probably better, RSN also gets more attention Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Ok. Done--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Cold War II

There is currently a map at Cold War II that claims to describe which countries are on which sides in "Cold War II". I believe this map is original research and synthesis, and must be removed. The criteria for inclusion (such as countries opposing the Syrian government on the Syrian Civil War) are arbitrary, and there's no reason to believe that the sources describing a "cold war" between the US and Russia, and the sources describing a conflict between the US and China are referring to the same conflict. (courtesy ping @DemocraticSocialism, Odemirense, Firebrace, George Ho, and Fenetrejones:) power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:55, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Yup. Obvious OR, using sources that don't even mention this concept as it appears to be happening means just whichever countries/conflicts the makers of the map think is part of this cold war II is included. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Seconded with "power" and Galobtter. I also have concerns about the OR. Also, it would mislead readers into thinking that the "Cold War II" is actually happening. The fact that the article exists doesn't mean that another "Cold War" is happening, right? Back to the map, (inserted) I let the two contribute to the map and didn't do anything else, like edit-warring with them; rather I let someone else handle the map situation better.(end insert) If anyone feels that the map should be kept, then the image should be changed. I.e. one color representing sides with Russia, one color representing sides with China, and one color representing sides with Russia and China. Otherwise, best to remove the image once and for all. --George Ho (talk) 05:17, 22 May 2018 (UTC); edited, 05:19, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Yeah I was also thinking the article topic seems problematic - the lead should probably say something like "Various commentators and academics have described the current state of political and military tensions as being a Cold War II" because the term isn't really used widely enough; the whole article seems to have problems with SYNTH, just using any source where the term is mentioned. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
If you like, you can do the 2nd AFD nomination. When the 1st AFD nom was closed by non-admin as "kept", the article was massively larger and more misleading. George Ho (talk) 05:33, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
@George Ho: Please read WP:CANVAS, thank you. Firebrace (talk) 15:31, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Well, I don't see it getting deleted, anyhow; writing a reasonable article would be difficult or impossible; it's also pulling together all the various terms used into one thing which is also somewhat SYNTH; but it'll mostly be keep !votes putting GNG GNG Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:40, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Pinging George Ho, also FenetreJones and Firebrace: Actually the 1st map that I had created was very simple, I had only colored USA, EU, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea, I think. There are some criteria that possibly shouldn't be there, like the relations with Venezuela or the civil war in Yemen. I think the civil war in Syria makes sense to be there, though, since Russia and USA have been actually supporting opposite sides. I could create a map with more colors, displaying alignment with USA, Russia, China, Russia+China vs USA, USA+China (it could be the case for Djibouti) and USA+Russia/ vs China (This might be the case for India and Nicaragua, for example). Or I could create two maps, one for USA/Russia and another for USA/China. Maybe it can also be exagerated to display the colors according to military bases belonging to US allies that are not USA. If the article itself is not reasonable, then that's not up to me to discuss. Greetings! Odemirense (talk) 13:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

WWE Money in the Bank

JDC808 insists on adding information into the article WWE Money in the Bank which is not supported by a source, see [3] as an example of their edits. I attempted to explain to the user here User talk:JDC808#MITB as to their issues however they are insistent that because its not rocket science it is ok to add it. They are combining pieces of information from multiple sources to draw their conclusion, a clear WP:SYNTH violation. Currently the WWE has 2 world champions, and the users only source says "A World Championship" and does not specify which. They have concluded this means both are eligible but they do not have one clear source which states this, making it a clear case of WP:OR. Although their conclusion is the probable eventuality, nothing has been announced officially so there is no way to confirm this information is correct or not. - GalatzTalk 20:41, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Galatz keeps insisting that the claims are not supported by the sources when they in fact are. He says "my only source", which is false, as there are four sources that support the information, but Galatz is overlooking that because of his own misinterpretation and believing what I'm doing is SYNTH, which is false. On the shows themselves, supported by RSs, they have said what the contracts can be used for. Another editor added the information back, but Galatz also reverted them with no explanation. Galatz is now claiming my edits are OR, which is completely false. --JDC808 20:53, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Then please provide a source that says both world titles or both women's title are eligible. If the 4 you listed aren't the only ones then why have you not provided one source, all information in one source, that states both titles are eligible. If you are unable to provide a source that states both are eligible, then yes it is OR - GalatzTalk 21:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
And here it is again. Galatz keeps insisting to provide a source when they're already there. There has to be at least two sources, one for the men's match, one for the women's match, and both are there. The two additional sources are for further validation. On my talk page, I have quoted the sources, I have spelled them out, but Galatz for some reason does not comprehend them as he tried to say that none of what I quoted supported the claims. --JDC808 21:08, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Once again, here are your quotes and why they do not support your claim
  1. "He said he would win MITB and then he’d be in full control of his destiny and will then take back the Universal Championship"; "He said they need to be in a position of power and the way to do that is to win MITB and the WWE Universal Championship" - This is not an official announcement. Wrestlers say things all the time that dont pan out, so this definitely does not work to support it. And even if it did, it does not mean the WWE Championship is in.
  2. "She said that whichever superstars grab the briefcases will take them back to their respective brands" - That is the briefcase, doesnt mean the title.
  3. "With the contract inside, the victorious Superstar will guarantee himself a World Championship opportunity anytime and anywhere they wish in the subsequent year" - Per WP:PRIMARY * Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. That is exactly what you are doing. They do not say what World Championship, only it will be for one. You are coming to the conclusion.
  4. "This year’s follow-up Ladder Match promises to bring the Women’s Evolution to new heights, as Raw and SmackDown LIVE’s most daring Superstars will once again take to the rungs"; "With ladders scattered around the ring, who will conquer the opposition, climb the dangerous rungs, grab the Money in the Bank briefcase and capture the coveted contract to earn an opportunity to challenge a World Champion any time they wish in the next year" - Once again no mention of which or both championships only that it is one, so you are once again violating WP:PRIMARY
#1 even if you wanted to say it counted for Universal, it excludes WWE Championship, so this one doesn't work to support your claim. #2 bringing the contract to their brand but without knowing which championships are eligible we don't know what it is for, so this one doesn't support your claim. #3 and #4 only say a world championship, and do not say which or if its more than one. So once again, since none of these support your claim, what do you have that does? - GalatzTalk 21:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
This is just clear evidence that Galatz does not comprehend the sources. Working backwards. Point 3 and 4 are sources from WWE themselves for both matches which state that the winner of each will earn a contract (contained within a briefcase) for a world championship match. Galatz is correct when he said there are two world championships (for the men and women, respectively), but for some reason, he does not understand the language here. "A world championship"/"A world champion" means there is more than one. This is simple English. For Points 1 and 2: Point 1 is further support that the Universal title is included (since Galatz's issue was that it is not spelled out for him in the other source), and Point 2 is further support that the contracts contained within the briefcases are to be used for the world titles of the respective brands, meaning if a wrestler on the Raw brand won, they could only use it on Raw's world titles (which are the Universal Championship and Raw Women's Championship), whereas if a wrestler on the SmackDown brand won, they could only use it on SmackDown's world titles (the WWE Championship and SmackDown Women's Championship). --JDC808 21:42, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Would you say "The WWE Championship is a world championship in the WWE" is an incorrect statement? If you believe it is correct than saying a world championship could mean just that one. - GalatzTalk 12:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
That is a correct statement, but if they were just meaning that championship, they would have said that and other comments on the shows wouldn't have been made. --JDC808 19:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
It is not our place to ask why they chose to word it that way, it could be because they haven't made up their mind yet. They didnt announce how the Royal Rumble would work until the preshow the day of. So what you are saying you are taking all the comments together to draw a conclusion, in violation of WP:SYNTH. Got it. - GalatzTalk 19:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
No. Please stop making false accusations. If anything, you are drawing your own conclusions based on a misunderstanding of wording. --JDC808 19:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I am not drawing any conclusions. I am saying they are being vague and not stating it clearly for a reason. You are taking it and making a determination what it means. - GalatzTalk 20:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
"I am saying they are being vague and not stating it clearly for a reason." Your drawn conclusion that has no backing. --JDC808 20:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
Saying they haven't clearly stated what it is, is not drawing a conclusion, I am saying there is plenty of possible outcomes. They have not come out and said "It is for Universal or WWE Championship", yet you have concluded they have. - GalatzTalk 20:17, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
I am the editor mentioned above who reverted (some of) JDC's additins back in - but only of them as much was irrelevant to the topic. I support JDC's more extensive reading of the sources. Furthermore, if I know look on one of these [4], this reading seems to be now explicit: "At WWE Money in the Bank, eight of Raw and SmackDown LIVE’s elite competitors will squthe [some code error, probably it should read: "square off for the"] opportunity to challenge the Champion from their respective brands. are off in the Men’s Money in the Bank Ladder Match with the goal of climbing the rungs and claiming the prized briefcase. With the contract inside, the victorious Superstar will guarantee himself the opportunity to challenge the World Champion from his respective brand anytime and anywhere they wish in the subsequent year." It is obvious that by "world champion", WWE refers not only to the actual "WWE World Champion" but also to the Mil.. I mean, the "Universal Championship". Otherwise, allowing wrestles from either brand into the match wouldn't make sense. How can they cash in anytime, anyplace when they are on the same show on PPVs.
And for the women [5]: "The victorious Superstar will guarantee herself the opportunity to challenge the World Champion from her respective brand anytime and anywhere they wish in the subsequent year. While referring to either women's champion as a "world champion" is uncommon, there is no other female champion around.
Finally, let me state that nothing could be further from the truth than to state "It is not our place to ask why they chose to word it that way". It is very much our place to read source with a mind that is not switched-off. Str1977 (talk) 15:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, your sources support the claim. It appears that they have changed the wording as that is not what it said previously, as you can see JDC quoted above is different than what it says now. As for your other comments though, yes it is not our place. If they can be read in multiple ways or have more than one meaning, we should not be coming to our own conclusions. - GalatzTalk 16:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
"If they can be read in multiple ways or have more than one meaning, we should not be coming to our own conclusions" - on the contrary, we cannot avoid it. JDC drew his conclusions and so did you. We merely have to be careful not to stray too far. Str1977 (talk) 20:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Absolutely not. The correct answer is to not include it at all and wait until it is officially announced. - GalatzTalk 00:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

May someone review Special:Contributions/ At Darius the Mede, the IP has been pushing a crackpot POV through WP:OR, namely that the Hebrew word Koresh does not mean Cyrus. Diff: [6]. The IP stated Cyrus isn't mentioned in the book of Daniel, Koresh is. This translates into English as "Cyrus isn't mentioned in the book of Daniel, Cyrus is." Tgeorgescu (talk) 07:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

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