Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard

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Commercial link in Achim Müller

I accidentally saw your version of this article and the fact that it contained link to commercial website in text. I deleted it, but my edit was reverted by article's author, @Scriptned: [1]. I really didn't know if this is the right place to report it, but it seems that you don't have "report a problem in an article" subpage or similar. IMHO advertising like this should be deleted. Wostr (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

@Wostr: I've killed it again, and some peacock language. That indeed does not belong, we are not writing a soapbox. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:27, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
@Beetstra: thanks. Wostr (talk) 14:06, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Should song articles contain external links to commercial lyrics sites?

This question came up during a recent discussion about MetroLyrics. The site, which provides both "official" and user generated lyrics, has changed the manner in which the two are identified. Previously, only those lyrics identified with a LyricFind "LF" logo were licensed and deemed acceptable to link. Now, it is not readily apparent which are official and which are not; one must click on "edit lyrics" on the lyrics page and see if "Locked: X Lyrics The lyrics to this song are deemed official and accurate, and are subsequently locked"[2] or "Edit: X Lyrics ... Submit Corrections"[3] is displayed.

Also, some songs which previously had an LF logo now either show "Unfortunately, we aren't authorized to display these lyrics" or are not "locked" (able to be edited by users). MetroLyrics links were added to thousands of song articles by a bot and now with its change in practices, a large number of articles could be affected.

Ojorojo (talk) 21:21, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Remove links to lyrics sites – The changes at MetroLyrics show that the status of the links is not stable: what one day are "official" lyrics can be replaced with user generated content. The links were added by a bot to many articles that have no or little recent activity. Therefore, they must be monitored by editors-at-large as another maintenance chore. —Ojorojo (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Keep links to lyrics sites. According to the External links guideline, the issue is to avoid dead links (WP:ELDEAD) rather than supply links to sites where the content rarely changes. All websites have content that is a constant state of flux, as content is added, updated, removed, tweaked and amended. Even WP articles are constantly being modified as editors improve the content. WP editors are not expected to monitor website content as this would be an impossible task. However, a link to a song's lyrics is quite stable, even if the actual words in the lyrics are amended from time to time. Any user following the link will be provided with the most recent version of the lyrics. BronHiggs (talk) 01:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
It would be desirable to evaluate some samples before a discussion on hypothetical links. LinkSearch shows http links. I tried a couple of examples and got only junk (e.g. 1 + 2) and that suggests remove although someone who edits in the area may know of useful examples. I also saw that the site is listed as a mirror of Wikipedia (MetroLyrics) because they apparently have a scamy system to copy a Wikipedia article into the comment field of one of their pages. Johnuniq (talk) 04:54, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Just the Beginning (Grace VanderWaal album)

Dispute over what external links, if any, belong in the article about VanderWaal's album. - Ronz (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Expansion of listed links from 3 to 7: I originally listed the three from the "External links" section at the time. I'm adding all that have ever been used or mentioned for completeness, given the section in the article has been subsequently changed. --Ronz (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Previous discussion
Related discussion
Links in External links section of the current version
  1. VanderWaal's official website
    Official website for VanderWaal, very minimal in content.
  2. Album trailer
    A one minute video for the album. The video content is promotional in nature, providing very little information about the album.
    This webpage prominently links to smarturl.it/GV-JustTheBeginning , which contains samples of each song from the album
  3. VanderWaal at the Austin City Limits Music Festival, October 7, 2017, where she introduced several songs from the album
    A 55 second video for her appearance at Austin City Limits. Like the "album trailer" video, it also prominently links to smarturl.it/GV-JustTheBeginning .
  4. Grace Vanderwaal Official Store
    The main webpage for her store at musictoday.com, linked from "STORE" on VanderWaal's official website. This was proposed and rejected in the article talk page discussion.
  5. Grace Vanderwaal Just The Beginning (CD or Digital)
    Product purchase page from the store for the album. Mentioned below 23:08, 12 December 2017. Added to the article as a replacement for VanderWaal's official website 18:26, 13 December 2017
  6. Official video of "Moonlight"
    Video for Moonlight (Grace VanderWaal song) from the album. This is included in the song's article as an external link. Added to the album article and subsequently removed [4] [5]
  7. Official video of "Sick of Being Told" (once it is published)
    As with the Moonlight video link, as proposed below 23:14, 12 December 2017

Survey

1. Official website
  • Remove per EL, NOT: This website is not about the album, and is focused on basic promotion of VanderWaal's works.--Ronz (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep (see my comment below) but this does not breach ELNO. - SchroCat (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep The link is useful and helpful to readers. Somambulant1 (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. The artist's website has a page devoted to the album. First Ronz objected to that, so we changed the link to the artist's main page, but I am happy to use the page for the album instead. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Adding to my comments: See my comments below about number 5. We don't want 1, 4 and 5, just one of them (I suggested #5, but if people prefer #1, that is OK too). -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
    • That is a misdirection, Ssilvers, 'gracevanderwaal.shop.musictoday.com' is NOT the website of the artist, that is a commercial link to buy the album. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:14, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I believe that it is the exclusive authorized website (#5 below), but if it is not, then we should have #1 in the EL section, instead of #4 and #5. -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove The artist's Wikipedia article is linked. Users who explore the artist will find this link at the bottom of her article. Additionally, this article is not about the artist, so this link is not the official website of the subject of the article. Stesmo (talk) 08:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove, this is not the official website of the subject of the article. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep this useful and helpful link. Jack1956 (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep official links are permitted. If the album has no official link, then the artist's official page is a reasonable substitute. BronHiggs (talk) 21:33, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
2. "Album trailer" video
  • Remove per EL, NOT: The content is promotional, providing very little information about the album. I don't think has enough relevant content about the album, though the music samples on the smarturl.it/GV-JustTheBeginning website (the site appears to be blacklisted) might be a useful addition. --Ronz (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep (see my comment below) - SchroCat (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep The link is useful and helpful to readers. Somambulant1 (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is an official trailer video from the artist for the album. It is certainly of interest to any reader who is interested in this album. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove Promotion is the sole purpose of a Trailer_(promotion). There is nothing here that promotes the encyclopedic understanding of the subject. Stesmo (talk) 08:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove Not needed for an encyclopedic understanding of the subject. Violation of WP:NOT#REPOSITORY, WP:ELNO (clearly indirect). People who want (pieces of) songs can find them on vimeo/youtube/through the official website. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep this useful and helpful link. Jack1956 (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep This link is likely to be of interest to fans. It is not pushy or promotional - simply presents a few bars from selected songs with superimposed graphics noting the awards given to the album and the artist's voiceover with comments that provide background and context. BronHiggs (talk) 22:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
3. "Austin City Limits" video
  • Remove per EL, NOT: Promotional content not about the album. --Ronz (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep (see my comment below) but this does not breach ELNO.- SchroCat (talk) 21:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep The link is useful and helpful to readers. Somambulant1 (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is another video from the artist about her concert at the Austin City Limits Music Festival, where she first performed most of the songs from the album -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove This is just another commercial. There is nothing here that promotes the encyclopedic understanding of the subject. Stesmo (talk) 08:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove Not needed for an encyclopedic understanding of the subject. Violation of WP:NOT#REPOSITORY, WP:ELNO (clearly indirect). People who want (pieces of) songs can find them on vimeo/youtube/through the official website. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep this link is likely to be useful to fans and readers of the article. In the video clip taken at a music concert, the artists performs several songs from the album that is the subject of this article. It provides users with an opportunity to sample the music before making decisions about whether the album is of interest for purchase or concert attendance. BronHiggs (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
4. Grace Vanderwaal Official Store
  • Remove Links to stores fail WP:SOAP and WP:POV outright. --Ronz (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove promotional BronHiggs (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Tempted to keep - this is currently maybe the closest to the official site of the subject (failing a vanderwaal.com/albumpage like page). I however do think that this is too commercial. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • We only need one of 1, 4 or 5 per my comments below. -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
5. Grace Vanderwaal Just The Beginning (CD or Digital)
  • Remove Links to product purchase pages fail WP:SOAP and WP:POV outright. --Ronz (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Remove Soapboxing. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. I agree that we don't need all three of these: 1, 4 and 5 -- just 5. This has been my position all along. But Ronz wants to delete all of them and has muddied the waters by listing them all, above, to give the false impression that we are trying to put all three into the EL section, when, of course, we have only been trying to get in one of them (#5, or #1 if people prefer that one). -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:15, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
6. Official video of "Moonlight"
  • Remove The topic of the article is the album, not this song. --Ronz (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep The track is on the album, so it is pertinent to the article. It is likely to be of interest to readers of the article. It provides users with opportunities to listen to one of the main tracks on the album. BronHiggs (talk) 21:40, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Belongs on Moonlight_(Grace_VanderWaal_song) (where it is direct, and not indirect as here). People who want (pieces of) songs can find them on vimeo/youtube/through the official website. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. And yet, Dirk, Ronz advocates removing the link to the official website. -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
    • This is the official video of Moonlight, it belongs on that page. All other places are indirect. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
7. Official video of "Sick of Being Told" (once it is published)
  • Remove The topic of the article is the album, not this song. --Ronz (talk) 20:48, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep The track is on the album, therefore it is relevant to the article. It is likely to be of interest to readers. It provides users with opportunities to listen to one of the main tracks on the album. BronHiggs (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Belongs on Sick of Being Told (Grace VanderWaal song) (where it is direct, and not indirect as here). People who want (pieces of) songs can find them on vimeo/youtube/through the official website. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:44, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep. There is no page for "Sick of Being Told" -- it is a redirect to the album. That is an additional reason why it belongs on the album. -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:07, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
    • There is no page .. yet. Sometimes there are links that do not belong anywhere, yet. --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:08, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Current article as at 13 December 2017
  • The current article has three external links: album, trailer, festival. I support keeping each of them and closing the above discussion about other links. The extraordinary time and energy invested in pursuit of this topic is totally out of balance with regard to any actual problem (just from my talk: here concerning March 2011 + November 2016 (← see "Wikipedia is all about getting an outcome that helps the encyclopedia") + January 2017 + March 2017). Re the issue: WP:EL is a guideline; any link can be debated but these are fine; good content builders with an understanding of the subject consider them appropriate; berating good editors over what is essentially trivia is a bad strategy and diverts attention from actual spam. Johnuniq (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Subsurvey: which of the 7

Per what User:Ssilvers is mentioning - there is now a !vote where a closer could agree on every single one of them, resulting in linkfarming if all 7 are to be kept, or no links if we vote them all out. Hence:

  • Keep either the official album subpage on Grace's official website (which currently apparently does not exist), and lacking that, keep only 5 as the link in the external link section, removing all others. (if there is an album description becoming available on Grace's official website, then that one should replace option 5). --Dirk Beetstra T C 11:51, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep 1 (or 5), 2, 3, 6 and 7. That's a total of 5 that I recommend keeping. The most important three are 1 (or 5), 2 and 3. -- Ssilvers (talk) 11:55, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep 1,2,3, 6 and 7 (i.e. a total of 5). I do not consider 7 links to be excessive or linkfarming. At issue is wether they are relevant to the content, useful to users and generally satisfy other guidelines. Link number 4 is overtly commercial/promotional and should be removed. I have some reservations about 5 as it appears to be a link to a different album. For each of the other links, there is good reason for retaining them as has been outlined in the original vote and discussion. BronHiggs (talk) 22:49, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Note: previous related RfC on External links for this performer - Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
  • This is forum shopping of the first order. This editor has not had things go his way on the article talk page, where the discussion has gone against him, and now he seeks an audience to try and overcome the existing consensus. His description of the sites is misleading, and his lack of comprehension of ELNO is shown. These are useful links to a reader, do not fail ELNO in any respect, and deserve to remain in the page to help readers gain further information onthe subject. - SchroCat (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
    • So, what is the USE of seeing the concert to understand the album, and what is the use of seeing a short clip to understand the whole album. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • This RfC is just another attempt by Ronz to get their own way whenever he/she is editing against consensus. It is perfectly reasonable, under the EL rules, for this album's article to include a few ELs about the album. Obviously, an album is a commercial product, and it is not surprising that the links are intended to promote the album. In addition to the 3 ELs currently listed, I would also include in the ELs the official music videos that were made of two singles from the album, because anyone interested in this album would be interested to see them. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:14, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
    • 'It is perfectly reasonable ... to include a few ELs about the album': yes, but the official website of the subject is not the official website of the album, a short clip of one song is not about the album (at best, it is about that one song), and the concert video is not about the album (at best, it is about the concert). --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm surprised by the vitriol involved with this discussion over an album article. I'm not sure how bringing a discussion about External Links here is Forum Shopping, as the natural progression when at an impasse on an article's Talk page would be to bring the discussion to the appropriate Noticeboard (see WP:SEEKHELP). This is the Noticeboard for External Links.This is the right place and the correct next step. That said, Wikipedia is not a link farm for adding all possible links to an article, nor is Wikipedia a promotional avenue to be used to sell albums or other commercial (or non-commercial) products via external links. The artist's Wikipedia bio is linked and contains an Official Website link. I see no real benefit to the encyclopedic understanding of the subject by keeping these particular external links in the article. Stesmo (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Regarding forum shopping - any consensus on the talkpage, which is a local consensus mostly by people interested in the subject, does not trump our policies and guidelines. It is a good thing that Ronz brought this here early on. To all editors !voting 'keep', have a good thought about why the link is to be included. Being on-topic is not an inclusion standard, and a plain statement of 'it is useful' should explain what that usefulness is. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:43, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • There are very few policies that govern activities related to EL. There are only guidelines, which are flexible and not set in stone. Common sense is an incredibly useful thing, despite the fact it seems to be in short supply with those who obsess on minor points that need not be obsessed on. It is useful to have a link to an artistes website on an album article (of course it is, it requires a singular lack of imagination not to appreciate that), and I see absolutely no logic in removing the links to in order to be so unhelpful to readers (remember them - the thing we should give a toss about, rather than flexible guidelines that do not need to be adhered to). - SchroCat (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
    • Common sense .. "These are useful links to a reader, do not fail ELNO in any respect, and deserve to remain in the page to help readers gain further information onthe subject." - you still fail to explain why they are useful. I do not gain any more information about the subject with the homepage of the singer, which is already wikilinked. And usefulness is not an inclusion standard - a link to itunes for songs of the album are equally 'useful', and we can go on. --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Re: "usefulness", I will repeat: "it requires a singular lack of imagination not to appreciate that" - SchroCat (talk) 14:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Don't worry, I read that near personal attack. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:04, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
  • A two person thread carries absolutely no weight on this matter at all. - SchroCat (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
No, this 6 person thread is better, I agree. And then that discussion in a way has a seventh person stating the same as 3 of the editors of the first thread. --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:03, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

The policies are WP:NOT and WP:POV, especially WP:SOAP and WP:NOTLINK. WP:EL is how we manage external links so as not to violate those policies. We're all experienced editors here, so we know what a massive problem spamming is across Wikipedia, and how it's a canary in the coal mine for SOAP, POV, FCOI, etc problems. Because of this, EL places the burden on those wishing to include links. --Ronz (talk) 18:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

None of those policies are relevant to adding an artistes official page to an article on that artiste's album. This isn't spamming at all, it has nothing to do with POV at all. This is three links on a page we're talking about - it's not about three of several more, just three, and they're all useful for readers. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
I didn't say it was spamming. I'm saying that spamming is why this guideline is rather strictly enforced, and places the burden on those seeking inclusion. --Ronz (talk) 19:42, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Guidelines are just that, guidelines - and are "best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links). They are NOT "policies" as one editor in this thread describes them. Guidelines do not need to be strictly enforced. There is considerable room for flexibility on a case by case basis. External links have been a standard feature of WP since its inception. A common sense approach suggests that most of the links being debated are useful and provide content that in different ways enhances the article. The links to songs on the album should be permitted with regard to the following guidelines that permit:
(a) An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a legally distributed copy of the work
and;
(b) Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:External_links&action=edit&section=4) BronHiggs (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Point a is indeed a form of WP:ELOFFICIAL - however, that may only be the store-link that suits this ... 'a legally distributed copy of the work' is the 'legally distributed copy of the album', not the songs, not the artist.
Point b - "that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding " - we are talking about the album here, not about the songs, not about the artist. And I do note "... it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic.". --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
Point a is from WP:ELYES, with ", so long as none of the § Restrictions on linking and § Links normally to be avoided criteria apply." removed. By not ignoring the removed portion, we see that ELYES applies if ELNO criteria does not.
The problem is that ELNO criteria applies, especially ELNO 1, 4, 5 and 13
As for point b, "neutral" excludes NOT and POV violations, as does "encyclopedic understanding". Further, "useful", "helpful", "of interest" do not convey any relevance to encyclopedic understanding without details.
"Obviously, an album is a commercial product, and it is not surprising that the links are intended to promote the album" [6]. I agree, and that's why they are NOT and POV violations. We're not here to promote, nor provide a venue for promotion. --Ronz (talk) 16:37, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

musictoday.com

and especially there:

I see a lot of links the <bandname>.shop.musictoday.com/.../<album>, which are obviously not the official website of the subject, but the official website of a show that sells the album (where it may be maintained by the subject). My suggestion is to scrap these completely as inappropriate for inclusion. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:17, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Agree. "Official links (if any) are provided to give the reader the opportunity to see what the subject says about itself." An album is not an entity that can say anything about itself. Such webpages/websites are blatant WP:SOAP violations. --Ronz (talk) 20:00, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

New York Times' "Times Topics" as ELs

So the NYT has a thing they call "Times Topics". An editor wants to add the one for Culinary Institute of America to that article as an EL. In my view this is a search, which per WP:ELNO #9, we don't use. The other editor, User:Ɱ, of course disagrees. Thoughts? Jytdog (talk) 02:31, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Just freaking remove it. I've argued this before and had much more valid reasoning, but I can't find our past discussion about this anymore. Stop bugging me and forum shopping here. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 04:32, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
If anyone cares about doing the right thing anymore, read my rationale here: link. I'm tired of dealing with this rudely uncivil editor. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 04:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
We discussed at the article talk page, here, and it already is removed. Jytdog (talk) 05:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Looks like ELNO#9 to me as well, and ELNO#1. --Ronz (talk) 16:28, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
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