Template talk:History of China

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Where is the Republic of China?

The Republic of China(Taiwan) disappeared? --Chinyen Lu (talk) 03:49, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

It did not disappear. I had reverted the misleading edits made by someone. --Matt Smith (talk) 04:25, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
This is the History of China template. After the Qing dynasty there was the Republic of China, as described in the article Republic of China (1912–49). So that should appear next in the template. After that was/is the PRC. For the modern Republic of China, i.e. Taiwan, there is another template: {{History of Taiwan}}.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:35, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Other articles are not necessarily accurate so I would suggest avoiding citing other articles directly. The ROC continues to exist till today, and that is a fact. The subject of template {{History of Taiwan}} is geographical entity Taiwan (island), not political entity the ROC. --Matt Smith (talk) 04:45, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
As you know, and as has been repeatedly pointed out. Taiwan is not the same thing as the country described in Republic of China (1912–49). It can’t be as Taiwan is not a sovereign state, or at least is not recognised as such. The only way the ROC, as founded in 1912, continues to exist is as China today. The Communists won the Civil war, established the PRC in place of the ROC, and have taken the place of the ROC on the world stage.
I doubt even the government of Taiwan believes this, that they still are the rightful claimants to the whole of China. It’s a fiction they maintain, as they do not want to admit to the alternative, that they are only a province of China and so should come to an agreement like that of Hong Kong. Or even worse they don’t want to say they are an independent country, which might prompt China to invade.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 05:40, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes. The Republic of China today is not the same thing as the Republic of China (1912–49). Is the template implying they are the same?
Accurately speaking, the government of the ROC has never refused to admit that Taiwan is a province of China because they still keep the streamlined Taiwan Provincial Government operating. They just claim that the sole legal representative of China is the "Republic of China". --Matt Smith (talk) 05:49, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
If we were to talk about recognition the ROC was recognised as the sole legitimate government of China until 1971 by the UN, by the logic of "recognition" we could claim that the historical ROC existed until 1971, and claiming "retreated to Taiwan" ceased its existence is wholly incorrect as that same government fled from Nanking to Chungking during WWII, by this logic we should add the Japanese puppet states instead of the "old" ROC. And the problem with the current infobox is simply that the link goes to an article that stops at 1949 but the line continues to present, it's either one or the other. --Codename Alex (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Regarding 'If "Taiwan" is necessary for the Republic of China, then "China" would be necessary for the People's Republic of China', it is ridiculous to insist on symmetry between the PRC and the ROC on Taiwan – the realities are completely different, and of course "China" is at the top of the template. It is also unhelpful to readers for this navbox to have two links labelled "Republic of China". As we all know, the ROC since 1949 is commonly known as "Taiwan", so that name should be mentioned. A label of "ROC (Taiwan)" seems an appropriate compromise. Kanguole 10:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with you. In my opinion, if "Taiwan" should be used for the ROC, then "China" should be used for the PRC. --Matt Smith (talk) 13:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
You have ignored my response to merely repeat your previous statement. I would add that "People's Republic of China" obviously includes the word "China". Kanguole 13:58, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
For consistency reason, I think common name should be used universally if we have to use it. Two labels mentioning Republic of China is fine to me because the years are already different (1912-1949 and 1949-present). Alternatively, we can make it even more clearer by changing the years to "on mainland 1912–1949" and "on Taiwan 1949-present", respectively, like the Chinese version of this template. --Matt Smith (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic of China 1912–1949
People's Republic of
China
1949–present
(on Taiwan)
1945–present
This template is used on dozens of articles, including the flagship Chinese history articles, so it needs to avoid taking up too much screen space (which is more difficult with English words than Chinese characters). A phrase like "Republic of China on mainland" would do that (and isn't quite correct English). "Taiwan", as the common name, should appear, but just using "China" for the PRC would be confusing, as the whole box is about China, so the term needs disambiguating and "People's Republic of China" does that. Would the arrangement at right be suitable? Kanguole 16:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic of China
on mainland 1912–1949
People's Republic of China
1949–
Republic of China
on Taiwan 1949–
What I meant is something like the arrangement at right. I think using just "Taiwan" is also confusing because this template is for China. --Matt Smith (talk) 16:52, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
That form has two problems: it uses two extra lines, and has a different format from all the other extries in the box, with extra words where the others have only dates. I was proposing "(on Taiwan)", rather that just "Taiwan". Alternatively, "ROC (Taiwan)" would fit, and ought to be clearer. The lack of a line between the two ROC entries suggests the connection between them. Kanguole 17:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
I only see one extra line. It could be removed if you think it is redundant.
As for extra words, that looks fine to me because it makes things clearer.
"ROC (Taiwan)" has a problem that it uses a different format, with common name where other entries do not have. --Matt Smith (talk) 00:43, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I mean two extra lines of text, taking up extra space on all the articles that use this box. That is the cost of extra words. The purpose of the sidebar is to give quick navigation, not explain things – that is what article text is for.
"Warring States", "Tang dynasty" and every other entry in this box use the common name. Even "Peoples's Republic of China" contains the common name, though the longer form is obviously needed to avoid ambiguity. Only "Republic of China" fails to mention the common name. There is a solid consensus for the article name "Taiwan", so it should be mentioned. I have proposed "ROC (Taiwan)" as a compromise that compactly includes both names (with "ROC" clear because "Republic of China" occurs on the previous line). Kanguole 09:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic of China on mainland 1912–1949
Republic of China
on Taiwan 1949–
I see. How about the arrangment at right that has no extra line?
Other entries are not using common name in my opinion. They use their formal names plus the word "dynasty". And I think "ROC (Taiwan)" is inappropriate because it introduces a different format (abbreviation of formal name + common name). --Matt Smith (talk) 14:28, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
It is still as wastefully tall.
What would you say is the common name of the Tang dynasty? Kanguole 14:45, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
It is not taller or shorter. Its height remains the same.
Tang does not actually have a common name. It was simply Tang. The word "dynasty" is used to indicate a sequence of rulers from the same family. --Matt Smith (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
The common name is what people usually call something in English, like "Warring States period", "Tang dynasty" or "Taiwan". Kanguole 15:01, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Okay. I see. --Matt Smith (talk) 15:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Whether or not a country is recognised is wholly irrelevant to its REAL, ACTUAL existence and the Republic of China still exists. Today, I suggest adding the "modern" Republic of China to the box like "the test edit" made above. I don't think that it would confuse anyone to add "the Republic of China (on Taiwan)", however Wikipedia:READERS may be confused by a link that only directs to the "historical" ROC but not the modern one. --Codename Alex (talk) 07:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic of China on mainland 1912–1949
Republic of China
on Taiwan 1949–
This version looks the best (in my opinion), it does not seem taller nor takes away any information, in fact it clearly tells that the Republic of China today is a continuation of the old one, this would probably be the best version for the readers. --Codename Alex (talk) 07:39, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Pardon, I completely forgot the argument to make I first commented hete for, well the Chinese didn't recognise the Khitan Liao dynasty as a part of Chinese history, and many Conquest dynasties are still regarded as either "foreign rule" or "colonisation", to this end the "recognition" argument is completely void. The same goes for Hong Kong, and Macau as neither claim to be "the Chinese government", the Republic of China does. --Codename Alex (talk) 07:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Of course it is substantially taller than the first version above (or the existing version). Compactness is desirable in a sidebar that is used on so many key articles. Explaining things to readers is best done in article text, not navboxes. Kanguole 10:42, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic on the mainland 1912–1949
Republic
on Taiwan 1949–
I guess you mean "wider"? If width is your concern, how about the arrangement at right that has the same width as the current template?
As for "explaining things to readers", in my opinion, adding only "on mainland" and "on Taiwan" hasn't gone too far and can also make things clearer. Your proposal only has "(on Taiwan)" and doesn't have "(on mainland)" so is inconsistent within itself in my opinion. --Matt Smith (talk) 11:27, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
MODERN
Republic (on mainland) 1912–1949
People's Republic
1949–present
(on Taiwan)
1945–present
No, I meant taller, but perhaps your browser renders differently. (Wider would be much worse, given how tall the whole box is.) Anyway, this version is much better in that respect. Remaining issues are the use of the date styling from the rest of the box for non-date text, and the prominence given to the less-common name "Repuplic of China" for the Taiwan period. So here's another attempt. Kanguole 23:41, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
Which browser and operation system are you using? My proposal looks fine on Firefox/Google Chrome/IE11 on Windows 7. And your proposal is wider.
And isn't your proposal explaining things to readers, too? Although I still prefer my last proposal, I will let the consensus determine the result. --Matt Smith (talk) 01:27, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
It is a little wider, because I expanded its width to match the existing navbox, into which it must fit.
Are you saying you will agree to this latest version, or that wider input is needed? Kanguole 10:26, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
I guess you are using a WebKit browser such as Google Chrome or Safari. On my Firefox, the current template is just 225 pixels wide (while on your browser it is 254 pixels wide).
I'm saying that I personally still prefer my latest proposal, but will respect the consensus. --Matt Smith (talk) 12:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Looking at some of the most recent proposals. "on mainland" is wrong on multiple scores. it’s ungrammatical (it should be "on the mainland"), it’s a term for China little used or understood outside of greater China, and is unnecessary disambiguation: the article is Republic of China (1912–49) with the years enough to disambiguate it, being also implied by its position, below the Qing dynasty, above the PRC, in the template. Further it is factually incorrect: the ROC included Taiwan; Taiwan and other parts of China were occupied by Japan, but that ended in 1945.

The only confusion comes from trying to include Taiwan. It’s confusing as it’s unclear why it belongs in this template – whatever their history and relationship when the world talks about "China" and "Taiwan" they are two distinct states, and it has its own template. Or, if you consider it a province of China then why not include other parts of China with their own histories distinct from the PRC, such as Hong Kong and Macau? Adding just Taiwan gives it undue importance and weight. Using "Republic of China" is even worse is just confusing, both as that is not the common name of Taiwan and as it’s easily confused with Republic of China (1912–49). Using both "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" is excessively verbose and even more confusing.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 11:18, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting my grammar. I had changed "on mainland" to "on the mainland" in my proposal. As for it being unnecessary disambiguation as you mentioned, I respect your opinion, but I think it is still the best counterpart of "on Taiwan". Last but not least, it's controversial to assert that the ROC included Taiwan or Japan occupied Taiwan, because there are reliable sources which says the opposite.
Yes. It really is confusing. In my opinion, these confusions are resulted from the English Wikipedia using "Taiwan" to refer to the ROC. Would you like to offer some suggestions? --Matt Smith (talk) 12:10, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
There is no confusion with using Taiwan for the country as that is it’s name, in English, and the name of the article. The confusion arises when the name "Republic of China" is used, as that name is little used nowadays. It’s either Taiwan or in some contexts "Chinese Taipei" or similar. But my suggestion is as above, that it should not be included. Either it’s another country or if you consider it part of China then so are Hong Kong and Macau, distinct from the PRC, but they are not included. Either way it makes no sense to just include Taiwan, it just causes confusion.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 12:35, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
Then let's remove the Liao dynasty and Western Xia too as they are not really China either. --2405:4800:148C:91A0:E0EC:49C9:6ED6:9097 (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

I have just removed this : "Republic of China" as confusing and misleading. Confusing as the section above is also "Republic of China". The only difference is the dates but they are hard to spot and not part of the link. It makes it look like the links go to the same article, but they don’t. Misleading as it’s linking to the post-war history of Taiwan, which is the common name of the country.

I still think that a link to the history of Taiwan is not needed, no more than we have one to the history of Hong Kong or Macau. Just having a link labelled "Taiwan" looks out of place because it is out of place – it does not belong. Adding "Republic of China" is even worse as no-one calls the country that, and it is easily confused with the name of China from 1912 to 1949. There is no way to make it work and it simply does not belong.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 06:31, 31 July 2017 (UTC):

It seems to be consistent with the orthodox view teach in Mainland China (PRC), interesting. --Wkbreaker (talk) 08:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Collapsible template

This infobox disrupts formatting of images on numerous pages, especially since they usually include other more specific boxes. It prevents images from being placed in the beginning sections of articles and/or creates train wreck logjams of displaced images (especially on laptop screens). Even moving it to the bottom in See also sections creates ungainly formatting problems because it is so long. Is there any way to make the box collapsible or to take up less room? Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 17:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

Following up, I also support making the sections "ANCIENT", "IMPERIAL", and "MODERN", collapsed by default. Any objections from anyone to doing so? LK (talk) 05:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2017

About the "History of China" table, the English webpage write down the modern part as "Republic of China (1912-1949)",but actually at the chinese language webpage it is "Republic of China(Mainland 1912-1949)" and "Republic of China(in Taiwan 1949-present)".

Obviously the English page and chinese page are different, the truth should not be different even if the language is different.

The later is right.

Therefore, the "Republic of China (1912-1949)" should be changed to "Republic of China(Mainland 1912-1949)" and "Republic of China(in Taiwan 1949-present)", and also put it near the "People's Republic of China(1949-present)"

Thank you. Eugene1129 (talk) 06:03, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done. You need to establish consensus for any such change. Note this has been discussed before, with many objections raised to the inclusion of Taiwan and the clutter disambiguating it involves.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 08:39, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2018

The Republic of China (ROC) still governs the island of Taiwan. Thereby, the year of the Republic of China should be changed from "1912-1949" to "1912––present" 很好1412 (talk) 05:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — JJMC89(T·C) 07:10, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2018

The kings were really responsible for their country but the last king was just hunting and playing that is when he threw himself into fire when Zhou rebels stormed the capital. S23142 (talk) 11:57, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Not done. It is unclear what if anything you want done to this template. S23142, your request seems more like its to do with an article than this template. Perhaps ask at the article talk page or even make the change yourself, as almost all articles can be edited by anyone.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 12:38, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
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