Template talk:Christianity sidebar

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WikiProject Christianity (Rated Template-class)
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Inclusion of Evangelical & Holiness

Both seem to be included among Western denominations/groups. Evangelicalism and Holiness movement aren't denominations in the understanding of this template. The former is a transdenominational movement within Protestantism, the latter is a movement within Methodism. Both aren't denominations as in the case of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Methodism, etc.Ernio48 (talk) 11:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

They are a group and a movement, which is why they are in that section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Holiness movement can be considered a part of Methodism. It shouldn't be in this template.Ernio48 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed changes

Please look at User:Walter Görlitz/sandbox. I have listed two options that include trinitarianism in both, but eliminated the sub-groups who identify with it. I also move Calvinism and add Arminianism. Feel free to make suggestions here or offer your own options. Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

And a third option that pulls the "groups" out into their own "group" (to use the technical term). Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I oppose all three because they have all removed Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses, and I don't believe there was consensus for this change in the first place. This seems to me to have been the crux of the debate in the sections above, so it seems a bit strange to me not to at least provide options in line with what two of the four (main) commenters have preferred. Both User:Trödel and I have stated that we are not as concerned with the exact format of the template as with the fact that certain links have been removed without consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
You don't understand at all. They should not be present. Why should that group be singled out over specific Anabaptist groups such as Mennonites or Amish, over specic synods of Presbyterians or Lutherans. They do not belong at all. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I do understand your position—you want them removed from the template. What is also to be understood is that we disagree on this exact point, and it is the main issue of dispute. I disagree with equating the Latter Day Saint movement to a synod of Presbyterianism. The Latter Day Saint movement is a movement like Presbyterianism is a movement, not a specific church or subgroup of a movement like a synod. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
You clearly do not understand my position. No you don't understand that LDS movement is not the same as Anabapitism. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I do understand your baseline position, you just don't like that I disagree with it. You don't want those links on the template, as indicated by your suggested versions. I never said the Latter Day Saint movement is the same is Anabaptism. But there is no monolithic "Latter Day Saint movement Church" just as there is no monolithic "Presbyterian Church" or "Anabaptist Church". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure you don't understand, but thanks for putting on a brave front and attempting to make my opposition seem petty. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
In fact, what I do understand is that nontrinitarianism does not belong in the section where they are and you are offering no constructive suggestions for a better location and shoot down any suggestion for change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, I understand your baseline position. I never said your position was petty, though, and I'm not sure why you think I have that opinion. We disagree on a particular issue about what should appear on the template—and apparently some of the characterisations that underlie such a position. That's fine—there's not necessarily a right or a wrong and just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand. I have stated that I would support any format of the template—any format!—so long as Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are not removed without reaching consensus first. That's a pretty flexible position, and it is a constructive position that gives you a tremendous amount of leeway to find common ground. (I've pretty much moved on from the idea that I would prefer the header to be "nontrinitarianism" at all, given that there are trinitarian sects within the Latter Day Saint movement, so preserving the non-T link in its current location just isn't important to me. I think it's fine where you've moved it in your various suggestions.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, you don't. Offer a better option than the fecal matter that is currently on the templates and you'll understand, until then, you clearly don't understand. It's not your opposition to what you perceive to be my position that's the problem, it's the lack of constructive improvement that is the problem. The fact that you have made an assumption that is not what I believe is the problem is neither here nor there but is a separate and distinct misunderstanding.
The fact that you continue to direct link to the articles is a clear sign that you don't even know how to edit. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
(Super mature responses, bud.) I don't come at this issue with a strong desire to rebuild or reorder the template. If other users would like to do that, that's certainly fine with me, but I'm more interesting in seeing that its content conforms with the list of core topics and that no topics are removed from the template without consensus for such actions. But to me, that difference doesn't mean that those adopting either approach lack understanding about the topic or are being unconstructive, nonproductive, or being difficult. Different views, I guess. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I tried to discuss with you, but you're intransigent and refuse to be mature yourself. You don't come at this with anything that approaches an understanding that there are problems in the template, but there clearly are.
You have decided to give WP:UNDUE representation to some fringe groups, while leaving core topics out. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I have not advocated for leaving any core topics out. As I have said, I am quite flexible with the format and what else is included and how. If consensus is to remove Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses off the core topics list and thus the template because they are "fringe", I would be fine with that. But I haven't seen that consensus here, and no one has attempted to propose such an edit to the core topic list on its talk page. I've also avoided referring to any present content as "fecal matter", nor have I suggested that you "don't even know how to edit", so I'm confident that the maturity of my comments has been at least on a somewhat higher plane than that. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

tahc chat 03:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do that. I'm done. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Oppose changes - This has been decided over and over again.(see here and here). Nothing I have read hear changes what has always been the censuses, that the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian sects. Therefore, the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses should say on this template. Additionally I find the fact that this discussion has been opened on a template page, hidden from most editor, instead of on Christianity proper, highly suspicious. It seems to me to be an attempt to ignore the already decided censuses without proper discussion.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
The discussion was only started here because there were some disputed edits to the template. I don't think there was any intent by anyone to hide anything or do anything surreptitious. But you're right that templates don't get watched a whole lot, so it's not a great forum for getting lots of participation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
If that is the case then I apologies for not assuming Good Faith. However, I stand by my believe that, if the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be removed from being "Christian", then this isn't the place for that discussion to take place as most people don't follow template talk pages. Such a significant change involving hundreds of pages should include more editors. The discussion should take place at Talk:Christianity or on both Talk:Latter Day Saint movement and Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses, with notification on the pages that isn't being used.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 22:31, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
That wasn't my intention, but rather brevity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:20, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I also still oppose changes, just to be clear.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 22:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

A new template

An editor created template:Christian culture and has been replacing this template on several articles. Feel free to inspect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Only in three articles i replaced this template, two of them are not even listed in this template for example the article Christian philosophy is not listed in this template. and in the Christian music article i undid revision my edit.Jobas (talk) 01:10, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed insertion of small portal links in the templates

I inserted small portal links on this templates. Do you think this was a good idea? Do you support its inclusion in the templates? Please answer.--Broter (talk) 08:24, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I oppose the small portal links on these two templates; see Template talk:Christianity footer#Proposed insertion of small portal links in the templates for details why. tahc chat 17:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I didn't see what they did. Perhaps they cannot be used. I am neither in favour nor opposed to their inclusion until I can see the effect that they have. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Image in infobox reviewed

This has come up before. The cross is much more of a universal symbol of Christianity. In the past, ornate crosses have been used and discussion has been opposed to using the. Recently File:Christian cross.svg was added by ServB1 (talk · contribs) and tacitly approved by Tahc (talk · contribs) to replace File:StJohnsAshfield StainedGlass GoodShepherd Portrait.jpg the stained glass good shepherd image. In the past it has been argued that this is not a universal image. I would argue that the plain cross is a better symbol. What are the arguments against it and in favour of the stained glass good shepherd image or vice versa? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Both ServB1 and Walter Görlitz support it. I think the new simple cross is fine. tahc chat 15:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Consensus on Wikipedia on groupings of Christian denominations

I opened a discussion on groupings in Christianity, of which there currently seems to lack a consensus on Wikipedia. The discussion might be of interest for followers of this talk page. Please see: Talk:Christianity#Denominations. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:19, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Tradition: insertion of Saint Joseph (father of Jesus Christ God), St. John the Baptist and Forerunner, St. John the Apostle and Evangelist

Good evening, as concerned in the title of this topic about the section titled "tradition", near the wikilink of the Blessed Virgin Mary, it may be hopefully linked the article of ]]Saint Joseph]], which was traditionally subject of a type of worship called protoduly to distinguish by the one reserved to his Virgin spouse (known as hiperduly).

Even if John the Baptist wasn't an Apostle, in Luke 7 verse 28 he was defined by Jesus Christ God as the grestest prophet ever born by woman[1] and therefore has to be taken in the same consideration. Lastly, John the Evangelist and the Apostle is the one to whom the Lord entrusted His mother before dying on the cross (in Ecce homo) and as the author of the Letters to Seven Churches and the Apocalypse of John, in the Early Christianity he took a role equivalent ot Saint Peter and Saint Paul.

Despite the "proceedings" of scholars, all the Churches of Christianity that accept the veneration of saints, identify John the Apostle, John the Evangelist, and John the Presbyter with the same unique person. In a sidebar named "tradition", this element has to be valued with the opportune selection of articles. Among them, the article concerning John the Apostle seems to have the main meaning due to fact it relies directly with the entrustment of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, as Orthodox Church does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.38.238.30 (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

The addition of Joseph was discussed and rejected a while ago.
John the Baptizer (as Mark prefers to call him) isn't a good addition either.
I don't think that adding one apostle over others is advisable.
I have reverted your additions of these entries until WP:CONSENSUS is reached to add one or more of them in. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:18, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, all of your additions are worthy of being on this template. But there are guardians at these gates, and they will revert your edits. Maybe it's time for another full discussion, as each of your entries do this template justice and add to its relevance and its value to readers. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:20, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It would be good to note that the topics are actually discussed and listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:23, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
This seems as good a place as any to discuss any of these topics, unless an RfC or something is asked for. The "core topics" page and list has been a subject of contention and questioning, and the exclusion of the topics added and then removed being discussed here are probably major points of that contention. Joseph, John the Baptist? These two topics, at least, are certainly well worthy of being on this and the footer template. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, I should have written, "usually" rather than "actually". And not "any" place will do for a discussion like this. For instance, we wouldn't expect the discussion to reach consensus on your talk page, or at ANI, but since the topic is more general than just this sidebar, the location I pointed to would be the best place to discuss it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Jesus, Mary and...who's that other guy?, I didn't mean that any random page would do as good as any other to talk about the lack of obvious additions to this template. I meant, and maybe I didn't explain it clearly, my apologies, is that this template talk page is about topics on this template. By as "good as any" I meant the page you suggested or on the talk page of the footer template. I number myself as a member of the "Joseph and John the Baptist supporters" (maybe we can do a user category) who would like to see those two articles added to the two templates per notability and common sense. Discussing template topics on that templates talk page is, rather than unusual, the practice of every other template, and every article, that I can remember. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:03, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "1611 King James Bible, Luke 7:28".
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