Template talk:Christianity sidebar

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Inclusion of Evangelical & Holiness

Both seem to be included among Western denominations/groups. Evangelicalism and Holiness movement aren't denominations in the understanding of this template. The former is a transdenominational movement within Protestantism, the latter is a movement within Methodism. Both aren't denominations as in the case of Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Methodism, etc.Ernio48 (talk) 11:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

They are a group and a movement, which is why they are in that section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Holiness movement can be considered a part of Methodism. It shouldn't be in this template.Ernio48 (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed changes

Please look at User:Walter Görlitz/sandbox. I have listed two options that include trinitarianism in both, but eliminated the sub-groups who identify with it. I also move Calvinism and add Arminianism. Feel free to make suggestions here or offer your own options. Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:44, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

And a third option that pulls the "groups" out into their own "group" (to use the technical term). Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:52, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment. I oppose all three because they have all removed Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses, and I don't believe there was consensus for this change in the first place. This seems to me to have been the crux of the debate in the sections above, so it seems a bit strange to me not to at least provide options in line with what two of the four (main) commenters have preferred. Both User:Trödel and I have stated that we are not as concerned with the exact format of the template as with the fact that certain links have been removed without consensus. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
You don't understand at all. They should not be present. Why should that group be singled out over specific Anabaptist groups such as Mennonites or Amish, over specic synods of Presbyterians or Lutherans. They do not belong at all. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:05, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I do understand your position—you want them removed from the template. What is also to be understood is that we disagree on this exact point, and it is the main issue of dispute. I disagree with equating the Latter Day Saint movement to a synod of Presbyterianism. The Latter Day Saint movement is a movement like Presbyterianism is a movement, not a specific church or subgroup of a movement like a synod. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:14, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
You clearly do not understand my position. No you don't understand that LDS movement is not the same as Anabapitism. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I do understand your baseline position, you just don't like that I disagree with it. You don't want those links on the template, as indicated by your suggested versions. I never said the Latter Day Saint movement is the same is Anabaptism. But there is no monolithic "Latter Day Saint movement Church" just as there is no monolithic "Presbyterian Church" or "Anabaptist Church". Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:24, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure you don't understand, but thanks for putting on a brave front and attempting to make my opposition seem petty. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
In fact, what I do understand is that nontrinitarianism does not belong in the section where they are and you are offering no constructive suggestions for a better location and shoot down any suggestion for change. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, I understand your baseline position. I never said your position was petty, though, and I'm not sure why you think I have that opinion. We disagree on a particular issue about what should appear on the template—and apparently some of the characterisations that underlie such a position. That's fine—there's not necessarily a right or a wrong and just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand. I have stated that I would support any format of the template—any format!—so long as Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are not removed without reaching consensus first. That's a pretty flexible position, and it is a constructive position that gives you a tremendous amount of leeway to find common ground. (I've pretty much moved on from the idea that I would prefer the header to be "nontrinitarianism" at all, given that there are trinitarian sects within the Latter Day Saint movement, so preserving the non-T link in its current location just isn't important to me. I think it's fine where you've moved it in your various suggestions.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, you don't. Offer a better option than the fecal matter that is currently on the templates and you'll understand, until then, you clearly don't understand. It's not your opposition to what you perceive to be my position that's the problem, it's the lack of constructive improvement that is the problem. The fact that you have made an assumption that is not what I believe is the problem is neither here nor there but is a separate and distinct misunderstanding.
The fact that you continue to direct link to the articles is a clear sign that you don't even know how to edit. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:39, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
(Super mature responses, bud.) I don't come at this issue with a strong desire to rebuild or reorder the template. If other users would like to do that, that's certainly fine with me, but I'm more interesting in seeing that its content conforms with the list of core topics and that no topics are removed from the template without consensus for such actions. But to me, that difference doesn't mean that those adopting either approach lack understanding about the topic or are being unconstructive, nonproductive, or being difficult. Different views, I guess. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:21, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I tried to discuss with you, but you're intransigent and refuse to be mature yourself. You don't come at this with anything that approaches an understanding that there are problems in the template, but there clearly are.
You have decided to give WP:UNDUE representation to some fringe groups, while leaving core topics out. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I have not advocated for leaving any core topics out. As I have said, I am quite flexible with the format and what else is included and how. If consensus is to remove Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses off the core topics list and thus the template because they are "fringe", I would be fine with that. But I haven't seen that consensus here, and no one has attempted to propose such an edit to the core topic list on its talk page. I've also avoided referring to any present content as "fecal matter", nor have I suggested that you "don't even know how to edit", so I'm confident that the maturity of my comments has been at least on a somewhat higher plane than that. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:18, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

tahc chat 03:27, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do that. I'm done. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:34, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Oppose changes - This has been decided over and over again.(see here and here). Nothing I have read hear changes what has always been the censuses, that the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian sects. Therefore, the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses should say on this template. Additionally I find the fact that this discussion has been opened on a template page, hidden from most editor, instead of on Christianity proper, highly suspicious. It seems to me to be an attempt to ignore the already decided censuses without proper discussion.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
The discussion was only started here because there were some disputed edits to the template. I don't think there was any intent by anyone to hide anything or do anything surreptitious. But you're right that templates don't get watched a whole lot, so it's not a great forum for getting lots of participation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
If that is the case then I apologies for not assuming Good Faith. However, I stand by my believe that, if the Latter Day Saint movement and Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be removed from being "Christian", then this isn't the place for that discussion to take place as most people don't follow template talk pages. Such a significant change involving hundreds of pages should include more editors. The discussion should take place at Talk:Christianity or on both Talk:Latter Day Saint movement and Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses, with notification on the pages that isn't being used.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 22:31, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
That wasn't my intention, but rather brevity. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:20, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I also still oppose changes, just to be clear.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 22:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

A new template

An editor created template:Christian culture and has been replacing this template on several articles. Feel free to inspect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Only in three articles i replaced this template, two of them are not even listed in this template for example the article Christian philosophy is not listed in this template. and in the Christian music article i undid revision my edit.Jobas (talk) 01:10, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposed insertion of small portal links in the templates

I inserted small portal links on this templates. Do you think this was a good idea? Do you support its inclusion in the templates? Please answer.--Broter (talk) 08:24, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I oppose the small portal links on these two templates; see Template talk:Christianity footer#Proposed insertion of small portal links in the templates for details why. tahc chat 17:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I didn't see what they did. Perhaps they cannot be used. I am neither in favour nor opposed to their inclusion until I can see the effect that they have. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Image in infobox reviewed

This has come up before. The cross is much more of a universal symbol of Christianity. In the past, ornate crosses have been used and discussion has been opposed to using the. Recently File:Christian cross.svg was added by ServB1 (talk · contribs) and tacitly approved by Tahc (talk · contribs) to replace File:StJohnsAshfield StainedGlass GoodShepherd Portrait.jpg the stained glass good shepherd image. In the past it has been argued that this is not a universal image. I would argue that the plain cross is a better symbol. What are the arguments against it and in favour of the stained glass good shepherd image or vice versa? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:24, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Both ServB1 and Walter Görlitz support it. I think the new simple cross is fine. tahc chat 15:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Consensus on Wikipedia on groupings of Christian denominations

I opened a discussion on groupings in Christianity, of which there currently seems to lack a consensus on Wikipedia. The discussion might be of interest for followers of this talk page. Please see: Talk:Christianity#Denominations. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:19, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

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