Template talk:Christianity footer

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Quakerism

{{editsemiprotected}} Propose adding a new list to the list of religions, to accomodate Quakerism, which is a Non-credal Christian religion (and listed as such on that page), that does not fall into the other categories listed. This would ideally follow the "Nontrinitarian" entry, but I leave it to the editor to decide what is appropriate.

So my proposal would be to add one line to the the existing template (after Nontrinitarian):

Nontrinitarian: Jehovah's Witness · Latter Day Saint · Unitarian · Christadelphian · Oneness Pentecostal · Iglesia ni Cristo
Non-credal: Quakerism

Thus I am asking to please change

Nontrinitarian: Jehovah's Witness · Latter Day Saint · Unitarian · Christadelphian · Oneness Pentecostal · Iglesia ni Cristo

to

Nontrinitarian: Jehovah's Witness · Latter Day Saint · Unitarian · Christadelphian · Oneness Pentecostal · Iglesia ni Cristo
Non-credal: Quakerism

Thanks for considering this. Bill Jefferys (talk) 02:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


I did not realize that I fell into the "Autoconfirmed" category. My edit has gone through to the template. "Nevermind!" Bill Jefferys (talk) 02:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

How do you propose to solve this problem? Christadelphians are a much smaller sect than Quakers, but your problem is that to accommodate Quakers, who never regarded themselves as Protestant, and are not Catholic or Orthodox, nor are many of them Nontrinitarian, though some are (again, they are non-credal), I do not see how to solve this without adding an additional category.
Do you have a viable suggestion that does not mean adding a new category? Bill Jefferys (talk) 03:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes. Just don't add Quakers.
Quakerism is quite small and we do not list nor need to list every denomination type.
It will also not work to include all groups bigger than, say Christadelphians. I don't think we need Christadelphians... feel free to remove them. Also, as I said before, Christadelphians do not make the template any bigger.
Oh course, I don't recall the Friends reputating the name Protestantism, and they began within Protestantism, so I expect that is where most people would look for them, if anywhere. Carlaude:Talk 04:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Quakers have been influential far beyond their numbers. For 100 years (until the French and Indian war) they were the majority religion in Pennsylvania, founded by Quakers. The Pennsylvania Charter was influential in the writing of the United States Constitution (particularly as regards freedom of religion). Quakers were very important in the anti-slavery movement both in America and in England and its colonies, and were similarly important in the women's suffrage movement. They are the reason why you can "affirm" instead of swear when you are called as a witness in court. Their system of fixed prices (rather than bargaining) has been enormously influential in commerce...you don't bargain when you go to the store to buy a bottle of milk. Because of Quakers and other pacifist religious groups, conscientious objectors were recognized after the First World War and alternative ways for such persons to serve were devised that are still in the law (even though Selective Service is currently suspended). Just going by the numbers (which are several hundred thousand worldwide) you might call them small, but that number is comparable to some other groups on your list. So in my opinion, it is not reasonable to leave them out simply because of their size.

I take your point that perhaps most would think of them as Protestants, although Quakers themselves have always distinguished themselves from Protestants, insisting that they were neither Catholic nor Protestant. (Orthodox never came into it as there were no Orthodox in England when Quakerism developed). So, I suppose that one could put them there. But they belong somewhere. Bill Jefferys (talk) 13:31, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good/fine. Carlaude:Talk 00:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

History and Denominations

I think that I have discovered (by looking at the history) the real problem here.

On March 30, 2009, a slew of revisions took place that changed a very simple "History and Denominations" part of the template, into a potentially explosive one, by splitting it into "History and Traditions" and "Denominations". Looking at things, and thinking about how Wikipedia is supposed to work, I think this was a huge mistake. This is because, as you point out, "Denominations" has the potential of collecting a huge number of entries. Your complaint was (after thought on your part) that Christadelphians and Quakers were "too small" to be listed. Maybe that's right under the current template, but maybe it's wrong. Where do you draw the line? At number of currently practicing adherants? At historical significance (after all, many of the historical examples in the template are long gone but important historically), or on some other grounds?

My opinion now, looking at the history, is that the "Denominations" section should be deleted in its entirety. It's too narrow. As you correctly point out, it is a magnet for every small sect that wants to be included.

Better to delete it, re-establish the "History and Denominations" section much as it was before March 30, perhaps (and I would urge this) add after "Unitarian" the section "Non-creedal" (which already has an article), and let those who wish to follow up on any of these categories click on it.

Of course, there have been some changes (though not too many) since "Secisek" made that marathon of changes on March 30. You have been following this, I have not. You would know better than I which of these subsequent edits should remain and which should not.

What do you think of this way of resolving the problem?

Thanks, Bill Bill Jefferys (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the splitting the "History and Denominations" part of the template into "History and Traditions" and "Denominations" is an improvemt and do not want to revert it-- for a number of reasons. As I recall, I was also the one to make this change.
This tempate began as-- and still is-- in my view, mostly a "footer" version of the "main" Christianity template, Template:Christianity, shown at the right. (But it needn't be an exacte clone either, IMO.) You will note that Template:Christianity also has "History and Traditions" split from "Denominations" (not my edit either).
This template-- both really-- are about Christianity in general and not about Christianity history, and as such, it should not have a long list of links under "Christianity history" nor have a long list of links under anything else either. It would if we just combined them again. Even more, to combine them again would hinder finding things in the template, since such list of "History and Denominations" would, at best, be merely chrological. If
Not well, this is also why I created a footer template that is about Christian history, Template:Christian History. Have a look. Carlaude:Talk 00:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The history says that the splitting into "History and Traditions" and "Denominations" was not yours. It was made according to the history by "Secisek (talk | contribs) at 03:52, 30 March 2009". The previous revision, by the same editor, has no such split. Both of these revisions were by Secisek. Prior to that edit, there was no separate "Denominations" entry.

The problem I have, now that you have alerted me to it, that since there are thousands of Christian sects, there is no limit to the number of "denominations" that might be listed under this entry. How do you decide which to include and which to exclude? By influence in modern society? By influence in ancient society and on the development of the Church? By sheer numbers (but when? Today? 100 years ago? During the Great Awakening and Great Disappointment? You tell me!)

My preference would be to put just broad categories into this particular template, and to use the links in the template to allow people to find additional information.

I will look at your other template, but I don't think this solves the problem of how you decide, arbitrarily, to include or exclude particular denominations. Bill Jefferys (talk) 02:11, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not disagreeing that he made that change. It just sounded like a change I might have made. Maybe I thought about making that change and thought that I had. It's doesn't matter to me who made it.
As I know recall now-- the main point of Secisek's edits in this template (or edits made by someone at some point) was to have the links in this template match the list of Christianity "Top-importance" articles-- which was itself drwan up by a discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group. The list did not turn out just as I would have made it (nor was I part of said discussion) but this is a suitable way to limit the number of denominations/groups in the template . Carlaude:Talk 19:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes-- see here: Template_talk:Christianity#Scope Carlaude:Talk 19:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If this is the reason for the list in this template, then it would seem to me that removing Christadelphians was a mistake, since it no longer agrees with the results of that discussion. Perhaps you should restore it. At the same time I can see that there is logic to your position as regards putting Quakers into this particular template. I would say that your argument that Quakers should be excluded because of their size is contradicted by the discussion you pointed to. But I won't pursue the point. Bill Jefferys (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes-- I'll do that. Carlaude:Talk 20:02, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Adding new article links, only Top-importance Christianity articles

As reference just above, to add a new Christianity article to this template-- it ought to be a top-importance Christianity article. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list for the list of Top-importance Christianity articles. As of 1 April 2009, there are just 80 articles on the list. If you would like to remove one or add one, start a discussion on that talk page first (the list is designed to be smaller than 100 articles). Carlaude:Talk 19:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. This isn't a high priority item for me, but I'll think about starting a discussion. I had not been aware of this working group, so I just made the edit. Since there is a structure here, I'll respect it. Bill Jefferys (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


autocollapse(d)

I changed autocollapsed to autocollapse. This template was showing up as uncollased (open) in all placed it showed up! Please see Template:Navbox if you are unfamiliar. Nasa-verve (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"Branches" instead of "Denominations"?

I've noticed that 6 months ago the issue about whether the "Denominations" section would explode into a huge list. One solution could be to use the terminology in the "major branches of Christianity file [1]. Would changing the template to say "Branches" or "Streams" or something like that be an improvement over "Denominations"? Fralupo (talk) 08:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

hi. i've had no success discussing in the islam section so maybe someone here could help me out

the "quranist" denomination is not mentioned on the main 'islam page. could someone make this edit for me please?

1st, its missing in the denominations article (here you could simply write quranists follow only the quran without hadith) 2nd, its missing in the purple 'islam topics' template box (here you could also add the Salafi denomination)

thanks for your time —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.139.26 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Old Catholics

Old Catholics are not Catholics they are a protestant denomination 188.123.237.30 (talk) 20:50, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Old Catholics are indeed a protestant denomination. The same goes for Independent Catholics. There has to be some sort of distinction between true Catholics, in union with the Holy See. Both Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics ARE in union with the Holy See. They are one, not separate, and therefore should not be listed as two separate movements. 174.48.73.196 (talk) 18:48, 10 August, 2010 (UTC)

undue weight

{{editprotected}} hi, in the Abrahamic denominations could you please delete the 'rastafari', 'gnosticism', and 'samaritanism' due to their small numbers and undue weight please? The other 4 abrahamic religions bha'i, judaism, islam and christianity each have over 5 million adherents whereas the other religions each have less than 1 million. Thank you for your consideration.Jigglyfidders (talk) 11:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Not done: {{edit protected}} is not required for edits to unprotected pages, or pending changes protected pages. Are you sure you came to the right place? Because, I can't find anywhere what you are talking about. --JokerXtreme (talk) 13:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
i meant in the religion template, could you remove the 'rastafari', 'gnosticism', and 'samaritanism' due to their small numbers and therefore undue weight please?

or maybe we should reach a consensus?Jigglyfidders (talk) 21:09, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

change eastern to orthodox

the 3 main branches of christianity are protestant, catholic and orthodox. as such, could u please change the eastern term to orthodox please? thanksJigglyfidders (talk) 21:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
or i'll do it myself and you can undo if you see disagree okay?Jigglyfidders (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The Assyrian Church of the East is not Orthodox-- but is Eastern. şṗøʀĸɕäɾłäů∂ɛ:τᴀʟĸ 03:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the Eastern Catholic Churches are certainly Eastern, but aren't listed there. How about following the structure of List of Christian denominations? Tb (talk) 17:49, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
We can't use the system of List of all Christian denominations. The template needs a simpler and less compressive system.
There is no need or implication for "Eastern" to cover all Eastern denominations-- and I think other people will object to moving Eastern Catholic from Catholic to Eastern. şṗøʀĸɕäɾłäů∂ɛ:τᴀʟĸ 07:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted a recent edit that removed JWs and LDSs from the template.

I do not believe that this should be done without discussion and agreement from the editors working on this template. Bill Jefferys (talk) 22:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

JWs and LDSs: Do not remove without discussion and agreement

I have reverted the recent edit that removed JWs and LDSs from the template.

This should not be done unless it is discussed and there is general agreement that this is appropriate action. Bill Jefferys (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

As reference just above, to change the articles linked to this template, it ought to changed on the list of top-importance Christianity articles. If you would like to remove one or add one, start a discussion on that talk page first. As of 28 Aug 2011, there are 83 articles on the list, and the list is designed to be smaller than 100 articles. --şṗøʀĸşṗøʀĸ: τᴀʟĸ 03:01, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 December 2011

Will include 'Iglesia Ni Cristo' (Church of Christ) among non-trinitarian groups.

Chivasunrated (talk) 23:02, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

DoneBility (talk) 00:11, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 May 2013

make Western a link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Christianity 87.238.84.64 (talk) 23:31, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Done thank you. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 02:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Once again: JWs and LDS

Once again, the Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saint movement are being removed from the template. These currently appear on the core topic list, so shouldn't they appear unless there is a clear consensus that they should not? Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:24, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Keep in a separate section - I appreciate that they are historically Western in origin, but being non-trinitarian (and according to reliable sources, that is the key difference) they are actually outside the East-West divide. StAnselm (talk) 08:55, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposed additions to the Template

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more template page links. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: Take topic to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list. tahc chat 05:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest, to add this article here the Template which is: Role of the Christian Church in civilization, Christianity has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization and Civilization in genereal.[1][2][3][4][5] And i think this topic is important to be added here since it's important in the Christian and world history and since Until the Age of Enlightenment,[6] Christian culture guided the course of philosophy, literature, art, music and science in the western world. --Jobas (talk) 16:29, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Consensus has determined that to add a article to this template-- it ought to be a top-importance Christianity article-- and be correspond to those on the core topic list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list. Read (for example) the discussion at Template talk:Christianity footer#Adding_new_article_links,_only_Top-importance_Christianity_articles. If you would like to remove one or add one, start a discussion on that talk page first (the list is designed to be smaller than 100 articles).

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Core topics work group/Topic list). No further edits should be made to this section.

References

  1. ^ Religions in Global Society – Page 146, Peter Beyer – 2006
  2. ^ Cambridge University Historical Series, An Essay on Western Civilization in Its Economic Aspects, p.40: Hebraism, like Hellenism, has been an all-important factor in the development of Western Civilization; Judaism, as the precursor of Christianity, has indirectly had had much to do with shaping the ideals and morality of western nations since the christian era.
  3. ^ Caltron J.H Hayas, Christianity and Western Civilization (1953),Stanford University Press, p.2: That certain distinctive features of our Western civilization — the civilization of western Europe and of America— have been shaped chiefly by Judaeo – Graeco – Christianity, Catholic and Protestant.
  4. ^ Horst Hutter‏, University of New York, Shaping the Future: Nietzsche's New Regime of the Soul And Its Ascetic Practices (2004), p.111:three mighty founders of Western culture, namely Socrates, Jesus, and Plato.
  5. ^ Fred Reinhard Dallmayr‏, Dialogue Among Civilizations: Some Exemplary Voices (2004), p.22: Western civilization is also sometimes described as "Christian" or "Judaeo- Christian" civilization.
  6. ^ Koch, Carl (1994). The Catholic Church: Journey, Wisdom, and Mission. The Age of Enlightenment: St. Mary's Press. ISBN 978-0-88489-298-4. 

Proposed insertion of small portal links in the templates

I inserted small portal links on this templates. Do you think this was a good idea? Do you support its inclusion in the templates? Please answer.--Broter (talk) 08:22, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I oppose the small portal links on these two templates.
It is not done other such templates, and it is not needed.
Most of these portals are of low quality with few updates. If if a few of them are found to be of reasonable quality, there would be edit wars or which would be good-enough to include, since there is no simple, fair, and consistent way to judge and enforce "reasonable quality".
Again we really don't need it; people can find these portals from the pages themselves. tahc chat 17:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Index

Would it be possible to add a link with a logo to the Index article for Christianity (Index) on the bottom bar? Orthorhombic, 03:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Joseph

Hi Tahc. The consensus at the 'core 100' list seems to be to add Saint Joseph's page to the list. The page has been on this template for quite awhile, without revert, and with the discussion (although limited to three editors) stalled it would seem to confirm the page for the list. I'm surprised at the lack of editors who comment on these, but that is a side issue. Instead of removing the page from this template, please add the page to the core list. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

As you can see there is no consensus on core list page, and as you already know, that page determines the links here.
As you can read at Wikipedia:Consensus#Determining consensus, "Consensus is ascertained by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy. Consensus is not a vote. Your "arguments" at Formal nomination: Joseph were generally pitiful and if allowed to be the basis for core topics would result in an endless supply of "core topics". tahc chat 23:58, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
My arguments seem fine, at least for a weak start. If you notice I was more or less making light of having to do a formal nomination at the beginning. The page had been on the core templates for most of the year, without objection. To me it seems obvious that Joseph should be on the core template list, so in doing a formal nomination, after the page had long existed on the two templates, I really expected no objection. It surprised me when you did. So I put up some arguments for his page's inclusion, and then I couldn't think of any counter arguments. You didn't put up any in the discussion linked above, besides your opinion that others should be on the template before his page (we never got around to which pages, but I'd think both John the Baptist and Christmas should be core topics, although I think Joseph should be on the template ahead of even those) and that he only got half the views as Mary. Well, maybe Mary was his better half, which rounds out that equation. But in the biblical telling Joseph has core topic status, status which is reflected in core Christian teachings and the accelerating honoring and recognition that Joseph receives. His page has been on the templates for awhile, so I assumed you knew it was there because you keep good and well-tendered watch to protect those templates. So I thought you would be in favor, and couldn't think of any reason why not. And as I read the discussion linked above from my made-up mind - so my viewpoint is limited by that - I don't think consensus was gained to take his name off of the templates and the discussion to formally add his page to the core list seems to me to include solid reasons why and not many, if any, against. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:37, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
No, I did not notice that you had snuck it on to the template, until today. If I had noticed it before today I would have removed it before today.
To me, you seemed to be arguing very hard for Joseph, like a person that had written the article himself. You also seem to be joking in saying that I didn't put up any counter arguments.
There was never any need to gain "consensus... to take his name off of the templates" -- nor did you even ask for "consensus... to take his name off of the templates". You did not even admit you had snuck it on to the templates. Because you wanted to add it-- you went to the Core topics list to request it be added-- then could give no reason to do so. tahc chat 02:09, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
No, I didn't sneak Joseph's name on the Christianity template. I put it there in full sight, where the listing belongs. As it stands now the limited but ongoing discussion at the core topic talk page contains many more reasons to add Joseph's page to the core list than to not add it (his page gets half the hits of Mary's seems to be one of your main arguments) and I will continue that discussion soon. Thank you for commenting that I am arguing "very hard" for the page's inclusion, happy to do so. I see that you mention Joseph on your user page in sharing John 1, repeating one of the eight common names for Jesus among the early apostles, "Jesus, son of Joseph" (an appropriate descriptor, as Joseph named and raised the boy). Randy Kryn (talk) 19:06, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

"Core list?"

The whole affair with the locking of Wikipedia content to that "core list", has been questioned. It is not unlikely that some even find this assertion obstructing. Chicbyaccident (talk) 08:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Chicbyaccident. The principal of the core list seems fine to me, but at least a couple of missing obvious entries (Joseph and John the Baptist) shows that it has flaws. The decision to create a core list and to keep it to a list of 100 seems to have been made by two editors, so I would think if this round-number limit were raised for the inclusion of other appropriate links it wouldn't harm the quality of the templates. Although not many editors work or comment on it, and the 'formal' nomination of Joseph, which includes you and me in favor and tahc opposed, seems to be in favor of the page's inclusion, the process is still workable in theory if not in present-time reliability. Since I'm mentioning this, I'll nominate John the Baptist and see if that one is also acceptable. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC
Of course WP:Consistency appealing is valid in edits, refering to related templates/articles. But this idea with the core list - a sudden local rule here - I'm afraid makes users uncertain if they qualify to petition, to whom, and in what way. No, the content disposition of this "core list" spirit and thus its assumed spirit might as well be implementated into Christianity article itself, and Template:Christianity footer. Then this disposition could be referred to in other pages and content. As if now, it borders WP:Own, and gives an indirectly obstructive effect in its inflexible bureaucratic-like application. In short: if this core list is really that helpful, then now once for all implement its implications into the above-mentioned article realm content and then let's get on wikipeding decentralised as per default. Chicbyaccident (talk) 17:38, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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