Talk:Sinti

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Christian Bias?

"Sinti and Roma had migrated to Germany in the late 15th century and converted to Christianity. Nonetheless, they were still generally accused of being beggars and thieves, and by 1899, the police kept a central register on Gypsies."

This seems to imply that it wasn't the case that they were thieves and/or beggars based purely on theological denomination. My historical knowledge on the matter is thin but these seems to be a biased presentation, if it were to cite something else as evidence that this was a false assumption that would make sense. There's no citation here for a reference that this was generally believed at the time either.

[Untitled]

Is there any reason this isn't just a redirect to Roma and Sinti, with this material integrated there? Pending such a decision, I'm adding a link. -- Jmabel 06:37, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This article implies that the Sinti are a separate group from the Roma, rather than a sub-group within the Roma. This is not a claim I have seen made anywhere except Wikipedia. While we may choose to use a more politically correct term for the people traditionally known in English as Gypsies, it is awkward not to use a single word. PatGallacher 12:41, 2005 July 16 (UTC)

I have already corrected the text, as we Sinti are simply German Roma, not a separate group, in the same way as Gitanos are Spanish Roma, Romanichels are British Roma, Lovari are Hungarian Roma, Kalderash are Russian/Polish Roma, etc.Yoschka (17 July 2005)
Kalderash are not Russian or Polish Roma. That's one of Romani ethnic groups, they live everywhere but their origin is from Romania. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Kalderasch are not originated in Romania. They come like all other "Sinti and Roma" from India. --79.213.245.117 (talk) 15:19, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Someone needs to sort this page out. I don't know about Gitanos, but Zigeuner is not a word for German Gypsies; it's the German word for Gypsy, any Gypsy living in any part of the world.--Chris 02:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Sinti -name

What is origin of name Sinti? Chirags 00:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Until recently, the article claimed:
The name Sinti is cognate with the words Sindhu, India, and Hindu.
The Sinti Gypsys migrated from Sind, or from the banks of the Sindhu River in modern day Pakistan to the court of Persia where tribe-members sought work as musicians. From Persia, they migrated throughout Europe and North Africa. They are thought to be members of low caste tribes who were conscripted during early days of Muslim invasion by local Hindu rulers to increase bulk of their armies.
However, none of this material was cited, so I have no idea what it's worth. I don't know any of this from my own reading, so while I noticed the deletion, I did not revert it. If anyone has citation for this, it should be restored, properly cited. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:40, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree wholeheartedly with the statement made at the beginning of the article about how the Sinti are 'German Roma' and the Cale of Spain are 'Spanish Roma' and etc. This is simply not true. The Roma are one of our many (Romani) nations; calling all of us Roma is the same as calling all Native Americans 'Apache'. We are distinct groups (nations) with distinct differences. Certain academics have been pushing to have all of us referred to as Roma (as opposed to Romani, which is the correct term) but that is foolish. We are not all Roma. Most of us, in fact, aren't. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.247.222.45 (talk • contribs) 8 Jan 2006.

You can disagree but this doesn't mean that you know what you're saying. Otherwise, do explain why Sinti call their own language Romanes, and it's actually a Romany dialect. Sinti call another Sinti "Rom", that means "man", and that's how all Roma groups (unproperly called Gypsies) have as ethnic definition. About the Spanish Calé, they also call themselves "Rom", and their language "Romanó" (of which "Caló" is considered a mixed jargon Spanish/Romany). Your comparison with the Apaches is utterly inappropriate, as the American Natives indeed belong to different groups (Algonquian, Athapaskan, Muskegon, Sioux, etc) and have different languages and cultures, but all Roma (including sub-groups like Sinti and Calé) have the same origins and traditions. It was the geographic distribution that, with time, made the differences. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.37.253.152 (talk • contribs) .

It should also be noted that Sinti / Sinte is similar to "Sinhela" which is the name of the Singalese in Sri Lanka. Interestingly the Singalese show genetic similarities to the Romani people (Y Haplotype H) and both have connection to the word Ram / Raman. The Singalese show all signs of originally coming from North India yet now live in Sri Lanka - Lanka was the island mentioned in the story of Ram. It is strongly believed and is coming to light that the word Romani comes from the Rajasthani way of saying Ram = Rom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 (talk) 19:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Sinti are Roma

I'm a Sinto, and we do not identify with the Roma. Enough of self-proclaimed "experts"! It eats me up. We are NOT Roma. We do NOT call our selves Roma. We don't even like them. The Roma are primarily eastern European Romanies. The word "Rom" means "husband" or "man" to Western European Romanies, but is NOT a term we use to refer to our selves as a people. In Germany, for example, the Sinti insist on being called Sinti and NOT Roma. The Sinti are not a group within the Roma. We are a group within the Romani people. The Sinti are not Roma, the Roma are not Sinti. But both are Romanies (the people called "Gypsies" in English). We are all Romani, but all of us are NOT Roma. But what we say, doesn't matter much when a couple of politically correct "Sinti" experts want to become popular by saying we are Roma. I don't understand. This is very offensive to us. If you don't take my word for it, check out Ian Hancock's website online. He is one of the greatest scholars and experts about the Romani "Gypsies", and check out his book, "We are the Romani people", which explains this matter: We are Romani, NOT Roma. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sintooo (talkcontribs) 13:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, so you don't want to be called Roma and, as you say, any gypsy call himself "Roma", as you wrote here. You want to AVOID a confusion between Sinti and Roma but you create or AGREE with another confusion, between gypsies and Romanians because you write "I am Romani" but "Romani" is since ever the endonym of Romanians and the Romanians are not Sinti, are not Roma, are not gypsies, they have their origins in Europe. Let me ask you then: "Romani" isn't an endonym it is also an exonym. So why this word creates confusion between two absolut different ethnical groups? Do you want ro be confused with Romanians but not with Roma? It doesn't really make sense what you write here!--79.213.245.117 (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
I think you are right. Sinti and Sindhi people are the same and they are a population coming from Pakistan. There are many famous Sindhi people and almost 12% of the Pakistanis are Sindhis. The word "Roma" is, as you wrote allready, an artificial word, created by the politicians and in fact also the word "Romani" is also an artificial name, creating confusion between the Sindhi-Sinti population and the Romanians which are a Gadje population, not Sinti. Like in many other times during the history the Ethnology became in the last two decades victim of obscure political interrests. --Monterex (talk) 10:00, 17 November 2013 (UTC)


I don't know much about this subject but I read in the Spanish wikipedia that the mercheros are considered to be sinti, while the gitanos are considered rom. [email protected] The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.48.125.134 (talk • contribs) .
No, the "mercheros" are like the "quinquis", not Romany group and nobody call them Sinti (it's an unknown term in Spain). Spanish Roma (Gitanos) usually call the Sinti "Manush", the French term. The mercheros are not an ethnic group, but just outcast Spaniards. The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.50.144.179 (talk • contribs) .
Can any of you all cite any sources for this besides personal anecdotes? It's all fascinating, but we need something verifiable so that the assertions we make aren't in Wikipedia's definition of prohibited "original research". Tomertalk 19:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
So how would you word this? "Romany people in Germany"? Since most outsider's words (Gypsies, Zigeuner, etc.) are now generally considered inappropriate, I'm at a loss for how to word this. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Romani apparently. :-) Tomertalk 00:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

"Roma" is not a name for Rromane (Romani / Gypsies) as a whole and is the just the name of one group. I myself am Romani of another group and we have never been a part of the Roma or have called ourselves Roma. Sinti are the same as us. We are all Romani but we aren't RomaTsigano (talk) 14:19, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Not true! When you say "I am a Romani but not a Roma" you use an exonym instead of another exonym because both denominations din't exist 30 years ago. Germans invented the word "Roma" and then they use to say "Sinti and Roma" in order to make the difference between those with german citizenship and the immigrants, most of them coming from Eastern Europe. In Hungary ca. 20-30% of the population are Roma, in Kossovo about 5% and in Bulgaria and Romania about 2%. In fact Sinti and Roma speak the same language, Romanes, and they never called themselfs "Romani". In Eastern Europe the most of them call themselfs "Tigani", Cygan, etc. and they are proud of that. The reason has roots in their history: As they are a population coming from India they pay alot of attention to the separation between castes see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste#Caste_system_of_India so they don't want to be touched from people coming from outside their caste, this is dirty, mehrime. Therefore they said that they are "untoucheable", "atsinganoi" in Greek.

A true tsiganologue can explain all this things much better. Anyway, only in England and only a small group want to be called "Romani" hence creating confusion between them and Romanians which are an absolutely different ethnical group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.158.176.86 (talk) 23:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

famous Gypsies

Any mileage in this? Elvis Presley's ancestors were Sinti http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ophelia105 (talk • contribs) .

It's worth pointing out that Elvis has been claimed by "researchers" pushing any number of dubious ethnological assertions. C.f. Melungeons. Laodah 18:40, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


=============

The world-class Italian footballer Andrea Pirlo appears to be of Sinti descent. I've heard this story from several reputable acquaintances. The last name Pirlo is apparently a Sinti one.Below please find an article from the web page of an Italian magazine: "L'Espresso" Giacomo Consalez, Milan, Italy

http://espresso.repubblica.it/visioni/societa/2012/05/14/news/la-vera-storia-di-pirlo-lo-zingaro-1.43098


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.56.188.0 (talk) 20:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Gifts From Sind

When Mohammad bin Qasim AthThaqafi, the commander of Islamic forces in 7th century CE, opened the Sind for the Islamic Caliphate after rescuing the Sarandeep (Srilanka now) Muslim pilgrims from Raja Daher of Daibel (near Karachi port now), he sent to Governor of Iraq & his relative, AlHajjaj bin Yusuf AthThaqfi, novelty gifts from Sind. They included: the books of the astronomical observatory there [which contained the mathematics of astronomy of that era & which had the Indian numerals 1 to 9 but {without zero} & which after translating to Arabic, the Muslim scientists added zero & adopted to 'Arabic' numerals {not to be confused with the Arabic numerals called in the West} in Arabic language & developed the decimal system & arithmetic & mathematics & then in the Arabic Maghreb the 'Ghabara ' numerals known in the West as the Arabic numerals, which they were transferred to Europe through the traders of Venice as needed to keep their books of accounting, as they could not add in the Roman numerals used at that time there & introduced in the West officially by the publishing of the book by European Mathematician Fibonacci in 1206AD], elephants & gypsies ("زط" or "Zoot" in Arabic) (as a troupe who would entertain). But after sometime the gypsies multiplied & caused problem of law & order in Kufa, the provincial capital of Iraq, so the governor sent them away to the border northwards with the Islamic forces, to free the city of them. So they moved northwards with the Islamic forces until they reached Europe with the expansion of the Islamic state. Source: The Book: "بطل السند" ( or 'The Hero of Sind') ILAKNA (talk) 17:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Indo European?

Sinti people look very indo European while Rom are more Semite looking. for me they are 2 groups that's only common bond is India. that is like the Persians & Arabs(semites) who hate each other yet are brothers. Sinti would be more like ethnic white people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.153.29.52 (talkcontribs) 8 Feb 2006

Regardless of how they may look to you, anthropologists consider them Indo-European. Their language is certainly Indo-European. - Jmabel | Talk 01:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

That is utter rubbish. Romani people look India. They do not look slightly semite. Indians can see the Indian features in Romani and Romani can see the closeness amongst Indians. Infact in the UK where Roms are coming over from Eastern Europe and living alongside Indians of Northwest Indian origin it is very hard to see any difference. I am curious to know how 4.153.29.52 could reomotely come to this conclusion.

Roma people have their own distinct look, I don't think they 'look like' Semites, I can see alot of Indic features though. maybe you should actually learn about the Romani language. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.202.22.224 (talkcontribs) 10 September 2006.

I found that bhang (marijuana) is also known as Siddhi in India,usd in celebrating Kali. [[1]] [[2]] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.187.154.33 (talkcontribs) 7 November 2006.

And did you find any linguist who thinks this is relevant? - Jmabel | Talk 00:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Just your mom —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.103.56 (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct the Sinte are not Roma, they are Romani.

The word "Roma" is creating enough confusion and problems. The word itself is a Romani word with Romani grammar and translates into English as Roms. It is also just one branch of the Romani people who use the word Roma to discribe themselves. Most Romani people do not call themselves "Roma" but most do refer to themselves as Romani.

The word "Romani" creates also confusions and problems because it creates a confusion between gypsies, coming from India and Romanians, which are purely Europeans. The question is who wants to create this confusion and why — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.93.37 (talk) 21:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The word Rom within the Romani language means 'Husband' or refers to a respectable married man. The origin of the word is from the Sanskrit word Ram / Raman meaning the same. Ram when spoken in a Rajasthani dialect is spoken as Rom. To Romani language is originally a Rajasthani dialect as can be proven by the grammar (masculine 'o' as the main example) and also certain words that are distinctly from Rajasthani. There are also words that are distinctly from Panjabi such as Pral (brother), Pen (sister), Kher (house) & oteh (over there). Rom does not mean man. Manush means man & manushni means woman. Also there is the words Gero / gori to mean man / woman but these words are usually used in reference to none Romani people.

Infact the word Tsigane / Tsingane is used more commonly than Roma amongst tribes [With regards to "Gypsy"- Romani people only use the word "Gypsy" to discribe themselves when telling non-Romani people for convenience as non-Romani people usually recognise the word "Gypsy". No Romani people actually recognise the word "Gypsy" when referring to themselves and some see it as very offensive].

The English Romanichal call themselves Romani hence the English recognition of the word. They have never called themselves as Roma and when referring to Roma coming into England from Eastern Europe they say 'Roms'.

To put away all theories and opinions as to whether the Sinte are Romani then the Y haplotype H which is most common in Romani males is the final answer. Haplotype H is only common in certain groups in India (and Singalese of Sri Lanka) and not common amongst all groups in India. Haplotype H is rare in Pakistan (the country Sind is now in) other than a Dardic people called Kalash in the North-West Frontier Province in the far north (about 20% of male Kalash are haplotype H). Example of haplotypes in India are most people of NW India and also many high castes are R1a which is also common in central Asia, Russia and Scandinavia. Dravidian India including Tamils of Sri Lanka are very high in Haplotype L.

It is very unlikely that two different branches coming out of India from two complete migrations would have the same high percentage of Haplotype H.

It should also be noted that Sinti / Sinte is similar to "Sinhela" which is the name of the Singalese in Sri Lanka. Interestingly the Singalese show genetic similarities to the Romani people (Y Haplotype H) and both have connection to the word Ram / Raman. The Singalese show all signs of originally coming from North India yet now live in Sri Lanka - Lanka was the island mentioned in the story of Ram. It is strongly believed and is coming to light that the word Romani comes from the Rajasthani way of saying Ram = Rom

DNA

Apparently the Sinte are high in Y DNA R2 (and also I believe H). From what I'm led to believe, both R2 & H are found in high amounts amongst both Romani and also the Sinhala (Singhalese) of Sri Lanka. Again I am no expert here but I believe R2 is also possibly high amongst Brahmin. Perhaps further research into this field would aid the article. The Sinhala according to linguists are originally from NW India like the Romane only the Sinhala left North India to settle Sri Lanka at an earlier date to that which the Romane leaving India. It is believed that the Sinhala arriving in Sri Lanka is connected to the mythological story of Rama who left Northern India and invaded and conquered the island of Lanka. The Tamils of Sri Lanka who are the other main group on the island are not related and originate just across the waters in the far south of India (predominently Tamil Nadu). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 09:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"Reinhardt's clan?"

Notable Sinti

"The Sinti have produced some number of renowned musicians, such as Drafi Deutscher or the jazz guitarists Jimmy Rosenberg and Paulus Schafer. The Sinto Häns'che Weiss produced a record in Germany in the 1970s in which he sang about the Poraimos (Romani Holocaust) in his own language. Many younger Germans first learned about this part of Holocaust history as a result of this recording. Titi Winterstein and several members of Reinhardt's clan still play traditional and modern "Gypsy jazz" all over Europe." If this is a reference to Django Reinhardt, why is he not included among those "jazz guitarists"? Was he Sinti (Sinte, Sinto??) or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.62.47 (talk) 23:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Some edits on the Holocaust section

"Sinti and Roma were deported to Yugoslavia by Hamburg police in 1989." I see that this is sourced, but it has nothing to do with the Holocaust (as it is written... unless, of course, the date is meant to be 1939 (an edit I'm going to make)). Otherwise this needs to be in a different section. CrussianObadagus (talk) 21:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

-I recently saw several references at the Dachau Concentration Camp Memorial Site that mention both Sinti and Roma being there, just thought I'd put that up here...Kargin (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Pirlo

sources for Pirlo being Sinti? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.67.138.7 (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Sindhi was the ancient word for all of North India

I haven't any source at hand but anyone involved in writing the article can easily research it.

The word India itself comes from the word Hindi which is a Persian corruption from the original word "Sindi". The root of the word from the Sanskrit is "sin" meaning 'water'. The people of Northern India believed in purifying themselves in the sacred river - hence the word "Sindi". From this we get Hindi --> India.

In the ancient world the Persian accent drops the 's' for a 'h'. Amongst ancient Greeks they would use both the Persian Hindi & also the Sanskrit Sindi (Sindoi I think is the Greek inequivalent). Sindi was the area of the people and not just the river. It cover most of the known world of Northern India.

Sinte like all Romani speak a language identifiable to the Rajasthan & Panjab region of North West India and not to that of the Sind. Is therefore more likely that Sinti derived from the ancient word for the Hindus of the majority North India and not the area named after the river. Tsigano (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

How sad

How inexpressibly sad that all the images here are related to the Romani genocide of the Nazis. I hope someone can upload images of the Sinti people/culture.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I would question the sentence: "Sinti and Roma had migrated to Germany in the late 15th century and converted to Christianity. Nonetheless, they were still generally accused of being beggars and thieves, and by 1899, the police kept a central register on Gypsies". Firstly, it should be "register of Gypsies", not "on". But apart from that grammatical error, I believe that there is a logical error. For there is no connection between migration and religion on the one hand, and allegations of being beggars and thieves on the other.101.98.175.68 (talk) 02:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Picture of a house of a Rom in Romania

The illustration "Roma and sinti-architecture in the town of Hârşova, Constanţa county, Romania" ist fully false in the article Sinti. In Romania there are no Sinti. Therefore I remove it.--Pachycrapsus (talk) 21:17, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

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