Talk:Joker (character)

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Good article Joker (character) has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 3, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
March 22, 2008 Good article reassessment Not listed
May 15, 2008 Peer review Reviewed
September 27, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed
July 7, 2014 Good article nominee Not listed
August 9, 2014 Good article nominee Not listed
May 11, 2015 Good article nominee Listed
August 15, 2015 Featured article candidate Not promoted
January 23, 2017 Featured article candidate Not promoted
Current status: Good article
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Category:Fictional victims of child abuse

Is it safe to put this article in the category Category:Fictional victims of child abuse? He mentioned how he hated his father in The Dark Knight (film) and other websites and wikias say his father was a abusive alcoholic father. --107.19.136.29 (talk) 18:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

No, because it isn't primarily about the film character and it's one of like three origins he gives so it's not even possible to say it's true. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 18:41, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
Hating your father doesn't make you a victim of child abuse... Argento Surfer (talk) 14:07, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Could someone add this or something similar to Biography?

It is revealed that Bruce Wayne had been exposed to the Dionesium pool being restored to life with no memory of his previous life. While sitting on a park bench (with everything about having been Batman revealed to him by Alfred Pennyworth) he meets a stranger who smiles a lot (It is heavily implied that this is the Joker who has no real memory of who either of them was). While this is all going on Gotham in under siege by an onslaught created by a criminal known as Mister Bloom who Batman had faced before. Thanks to his is talk with the smiling stranger Bruce Wayne realizes he is Batman and forces Alfred Pennyworth to restore to use a machine Batman designed to turn a clone of him into the next Batman.

During the Darkseid War the restored Batman acquires the Mobius Chair and asks "What's the Joker's real name?" and the response causes him to say "No that is not possible." He later tells Hal that the chair told him there were three Jokers. Durning DC Universe - Rebirth #1 it is confirmed that there are at least two Jokers: one killing people in Civic City while the other was in transit between Baltimore and Arkham Asylum.", the third Joker, the New 52 incarnation, remains memory-less stranger, identified in early New 52 media as "Alby Shader". From the looks of the artwork, it appears that the three jokers include the original, Jerry Robinson Joker; the Brian Bolland Killing Joke Joker; and the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo "New 52" Joker. In Dark Knights Metal #1, Batman is revealed to be keeping one of the three Jokers

Rowan North (talk) 01:00, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

It's not a biographical article and there is limited space, so until we know wthe long term outcome and impact on the character, it doesn't belong here and can go in the Darkseid war article. The first part is pretty much all about Batman and nothing to do with this character, while again the smiling stranger on the bench, we don't know the long term outcome so it has had no impact on the character yet. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 08:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Other Versions: Earth 2

Under Other versions there should be a reference to the Earth 2 Joker who appeared as a villian against the Huntress and the Earth-2 Robin. In this version, he had a tooth missing.

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2017

can i edit this plz Fahdsamaha133 (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done This is not the right page to request additional user rights.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2017

He needs to be in the Narcissism in fiction category because he believes he's the only man qualified to kill Batman. 73.215.98.136 (talk) 04:03, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Is this a widely held literary viewpoint? We cannot include original research or criticism. Altamel (talk) 04:54, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 17 April 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: I am calling consensus for a move. I have moved the previous article at this title to Draft:Joker (character) to preserve history and in case there is anything to merge. Some people suggested The Joker as a possible target but this wasn't enough discussion to form a consensus on this issue, so perhaps a future discussion can consider that. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:15, 4 May 2017 (UTC)


Joker (comics)Joker (character) – per the updated changes at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics) Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 14:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • @Darkwarriorblake: Joker (comics) and Joker (character) both have many text edits and are WP:Parallel histories and are about the same character. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support The Joker - everyone calls him "The Joker". Unreal7 (talk) 18:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per the updated MOS, this article should be at Joker (character). The material currently at that location is largely a duplication of this article and was created to satisfy User:Curly Turkey at an FAC nomination. The need for both articles has been contested and is what originally prompted the MOS update. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Conditional support depending on the focus issues that have been debated ad nauseam—if the article is to be DABbed (character) it must focus on the character as a character and give no more weight to any media incarnation than is WP:DUE. The success of a move here cannot be interpreted as being a consensus that whatever content happens to currently be in the article consititutes what the character is.
    Argento Surfer, could we please stop spinning this as if I were responsible for there being two articles, or that "duplication" were ever the point of having two articles? I'm far from the only objector (even at FAC), and nobody demanded two articles—that was DWB's decision. Nobody's going to buy the idea that I have the social clout around here to merely "get my way" in these disputes—the issues raised are serious, site-wide, and as-yet unresolved. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ No disrespect meant CT - I was trying to provided a brief history of the DAB/second article for Anthony Appleyard. I name dropped you specifically because you've been so involved with the issue. I didn't want you to be left out of this discussion too. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It's all my choice, but you're making your support conditional on you getting your way. Again. You did demand two articles, you wanted one for the comic character and one for the character, and everyone has tried to delete the resulting character one because it was pointless and the comic character was the character. The comic character is the character, everything else is derivative and virtually identical and other versions are mentioned wher enecessary and other articles focus on other versions of the character. You've been told this a thousand times and you blatantly ignore it each time then obstruct any progress. But no, it's not about getting your way or your view being the only correct view despite others disagreeing with you. You can't even just support a move here, you have to have to try and position it as resulting in you getting what you want. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Can we please not do this again? It's a simple move request. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:28, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
You're only making a fool of yourself, Darkwarriorblake. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Oppose until all issues are sorted. I've changed from "conditional support" due to the requester's comment: "The comic character is the character", which makes it obvious that this will continue to be a problem. This move cannot be allowed to set a bad precedent, which it now seems clear to be part of the intent. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:01, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
The precedent was set by Wolverine (character) Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 11:09, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
"so the precedent is set"—which precedent is that? That WP:COMICS gets to unilaterally decide that fictional character articles can give precedence to the comics incarnations of characters? Yes, this article will have to be moved; no, this move will not be allowed to set a problematic precedent. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:27, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, since the article seems to cover his TV and movie incarnations.Herostratus (talk) 02:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC) Changed my vote based on new info below. Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • OMGWTF you guys should lay off the Mary Jane and/or crack cocaine as applicable. Joker (character) is a different article, not a different title for this one. You have to get its editors involved in the discussion - maybe you want to merge them? Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 11:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh sheesh, did not see that. Changed my vote. Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose, and let's get to work instead. Don't know / no opinion. Joker (character) already exists! And we cannot move an article over an existing article. So this is quite a dog's breakfast. We could merge the two articles, but dunno about that since that would make a kind of long article. Since there exists the article Joker in other media, which has sections "Live action" and "Animation" and "Video games", wouldn't it make sense to move the non-comics material to that article (maybe some going to Joker (character)) and then keep this article under its current name? Herostratus (talk) 16:34, 25 April 2017 (UTC) Struck my vote, apparently there are shenangins going on around here, and it's above my pay grade to deal with stuff like this. Herostratus (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Herostratus, ignore Lois Lane V Mary Jane, Joker character was created after Joker comics and is essentially a list, the only pertinent information is already here and all the information has been backed up. It's still about the same character, it just needs moving there. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:42, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh OK. Well in that case, I don't know what's going on, and I can't really help you guys. The Joker has a large populated category.... maybe what you guys need to do is form Wikiproject:Joker and work all this stuff out. Herostratus (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
That article was made by someone trying to force their vision and is honestly a giant waste of space. It should simply have been deleted.★Trekker (talk) 11:33, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
That's not true. There is no major OWN issue among the majority of the project members, sure there are some but a lot simply disagreed with your opinion as well as decision to defend an utterly superfluous article. It would be nice if you stopped blaming the project for issues with disambiguation and stopped playing the victim so much. You had a lot of people against you from the start because of your condescending attitude which you've clearly not loosened up on, maybe if you had acted in a more mature way more people would have been willing to engage in a discussion which led somewhere, but I'm sure that a lot were scared away becuse of the trainwreck which some editors made the disscussion into.★Trekker (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
WP:COMICS has longstanding WP:OWNership and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS issues with fictional character articles. Like-minded editors ganging up to "disagree" that WP:COMICS cannot take WP:OWNership of articles means nothing, as Wikipedia is not WP:NOTADEMOCRACY. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:34, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Prove it. I see no evidence of this being true. You keep claiming this repeatedly but where is the wide acceptance among wikipedians that the project is that way, has there been a disscusion on this on a wider scale or is it just you? I left the earlier debate because of the toxic environment, which you were very much part of from what I saw, so maybe I missed out on the grand consensus among noncomics people that the project is that way.★Trekker (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
CT, I don't have a link, but at some point I got the impression you felt the (comics) DAB implied ownership, but that it was not purposeful ownership. I never agreed with that, but I understood the point and took the time to start the discussion to change the MOS. Reviewing that discussion, most editors agreed it needed to be changed (although there was some tweaking in the "how"). I don't see where anyone made comments that could be construed as ownership. Aside from DWB's comment about "the comic character is the character", can you link to a diff from another editor showing this ownership viewpoint? Otherwise, you're disparaging an entire project of good faith editors without cause and painting yourself as some lone underdog fighting the unreasonable masses. When you do that, it makes it hard for anyone to work with you.
You've shown you're unable to drop the stick on this topic - This is a simple move request to bring the article in line with the new MOS guidelines that you participated in updating. At that time, you specifically requested that articles on characters from comics be dabbed as (character) over (comics character), although you also suggested "Character X in comics". Arguing against the move now AND bringing up the same old content concerns is disruptive and antagonizing. If you think the content gives undue weight to the comics version of the character, then support the move and slap an Undue weight template on it. If you can't do that, then at least be constructive here. Even you have to agree that (comics) is not the proper DAB for this article. Make an alternate suggestion that doesn't involve anything but a page name. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support For what it's worth I say delete the current Joker (character) "article" since it has nothing of value and move this one there. It becomes simpler disambiguation wise.★Trekker (talk) 11:50, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Lois says: Oppose, (comics) is not the WP:primary topic and doesn't belong at the highest level. The primary topic is The Joker in general and his most notable incarnations in whatever media. Mary Jane also points out that the appropriate title for the primary topic is The Joker as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:Natural disambiguation. Lois also says strong trainwreck because you can't delete articles without tagging them. @Herostratus: does this make sense to you? Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 02:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It'd be really handy if people read the article before commenting. The article covers all incarnations of the joker it just breaks off to other articles to cover them in greater detail than can be accomplished in a single article, and on top of there being completely separate articles for the joker in other media, other versions of the comic joker, and the dark knight joker, there is Joker (disambiguation) which serves the same function as the current Joker (character) in being a list to joker articles. There is nothing to merge from Joker (character) because it's all already here. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 06:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Darkwarriorblake: (Lois) You seem to be saying this is a suitable article for the highest level? But actually the highest level should be a overview of the Joker's background and his most notable incarnations, not every.last.one. of them. (Mary Jane) sorry, tl;dr + full of spoilers Lois Lane vs Mary Jane (talk) 06:20, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Shut up, Lois. Nobody's allowed to believe that but me. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. Thought this was all dealt with as per the original discussion. Most of the stuff at the character page is better dealt with at the comics page. If we need to split off a page just for the comics version, then that can remain as Joker (comics). --Killer Moff (talk) 10:34, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
No, Joker (comics) shouldn't be anything other than a DAB because of Joker (comic book), Joker (graphic novel), and Joker (comic strip). I think Joker (comic character) could be a workable split from a Joker (character) article, though. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Support in the sense that Joker (character) is a better title for the article, and there doesn't need to be a separate article for iterations of Joker (character) in comics specifically. Merge necessary info into the broader article and be done with it.--Cúchullain t/c 18:21, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Move to The Joker (merging as necessary). No need to have two articles on the same character. Regarding The Joker vs Joker (character), WP:THE applies. Note that while showing a clear majority usage of a term with the definite article is typically the key requirement for WP:THE, the convention has this bit In general, a definite ("the") or indefinite ("a"/"an") article should be included at the beginning of the title of a Wikipedia article only if at least one of the following conditions is met: 1. If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article. That clearly applies in this case, combined with Naturalness from WP:CRITERIA implies that the article should be at The Joker. PaleAqua (talk) 04:08, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2017

When you Google search "Joker", it shows that he is a "fictional superhero", but he is a fictional villain... 96.233.152.9 (talk) 16:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

This isn't anything to do with the article, it's Google.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 16:28, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Jack Napier

Is it something important to notice that in the 1989 movie the Joker's full name is finally mentioned, "Jack Napier"? I read somewhere that they have just added a random name for the character (it is mentioned only once in the whole movie I think, and just in this movie), but it is also mentioned in this article that his first name was Jack, perhaps it's not just that random. Marcusbacus (talk) 01:53, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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  • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131228193827/http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-ii-29791.html to http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-ii-29791.html
  • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130520090100/http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-iii-30505.html to http://www.geekexchange.com/geeks-20-greatest-joker-moments-ever-part-iii-30505.html
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  • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131025044620/http://whatculture.com/comics/chemicals-chaos-jokers-many-bizarre-origins.php to http://whatculture.com/comics/chemicals-chaos-jokers-many-bizarre-origins.php
  • Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131014163841/http://www.comicsbulletin.com/columns/289/top-10-weapons-in-comics/ to http://www.comicsbulletin.com/columns/289/top-10-weapons-in-comics/

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Joker powers

I don't know what happened my previous discussion about this issue, but I am brining it back. My argument is that in the skills and equipment section of the page, in the last paragraph it talks about Joker being a skilled melee fighter. In an article by Screen Rant, it lists the many powers of the Joker. In it says that he's immune to poison/toxins. A quote of one the comics writers explaining his power, "In the story arc The Clown at Midnight (Batman #663), writer Grant Morrison briefly explains why the Joker is immune not only to his toxins but to poison in general: “An avid consumer of his own chemical experiments, the Joker’s immunity to poison concoctions that might kill another man in an instant has been developed over years of dedicated abuse.” In other words, the Joker underwent a drastic, bizarre form of immunotherapy. He explained why the Joker is immune to toxins/poison and proves he does have it. This is his power, no different than Harley Quinn.Xtremeroller (talk) 00:53, 10 July 2017 (UTC) http://screenrant.com/joker-superpowers-abilities-dc-comics-batman-villain/

Existing discussion, please continue any responses there Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:03, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Three Jokers

The events of DC Rebirth reveal that within DC Comics current continuity, there are three separate Jokers:

1. The Golden Age Joker - The Super-Sane Master Criminal 2. The Silver Age Joker - The Crazy Prankster 3. The New 52 Joker - The Utter Sociopath.

Now, The New 52 Joker has yet to appear in DC Rebirth, having been left amnesiac and sane following his revival in Batman #50. This Joker's name HAS been given, back in . Batman: White Knight will revelations of the other two Jokers as Jack Napier, leaving the third unnamed.

Jerome Valeska Joker (talk) 20:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

"April 25, 1940"

First of all, WikiProject Comics MOS is to give the cover date, not the publication date. We can say something like "(cover-dated Spring 1940, published April 25, 1940)" — but there doesn't appear to be any WP:RS cite for that April 25 date. MTV, which is not necessarily the most RS for Golden Age of Comic Books history, is the only mainstream source claiming this, which makes it WP:FRINGE that appears to have then showed up in blogs, Pinterest posts and other non-RS.

I've looked in several books, including DC Comics' own Sixty Years of the World's Favorite Superheroes, Mike Benton's The Comic Book in America, Gerard Jones Men of Tomorrow and N.C. Christopher Couch's Jerry Robinson biography, and not one of them — nor the Grand Comics Database, which usually carries these things — makes any mention of that date whatsoever. It may well be correct — but where did it originate? When authoritative books, including DC's own official one, don't give that date and it appears in one place only, that's a red flag. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Comics at that time didn't have release dates. They just got displayed when they arrived at newsstands. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Well what do you know... Argento Surfer (talk) 15:29, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
If we have the exact date I don't see the problem with using it, in fact the exact date is there because a reviewer took issue with it last time I took the article to FA. I also don't see the problem with using Cracked for what is a non-controversial purpose. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:12, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
An advertising flyer isn't necessarily evidence that it came out on that date — if you go to Detective Comics, you'll see an ad saying the first issue would be out with a December 1936 cover date (rather than the eventual March 1937). This is one reason WikiProject Comics doesn't allow comics-company solicitations to be used as reference sources. About the only thing we could use is a Copyright Office filing, as I believe the project has cited in the past.
As for Cracked, that was the subject of a discussion sometime back, and among other things, it's WP:USERGENERATED. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
But at the same time, there is a source saying April 25, 1940 and a flyer saying April 25, 1940, and no sources saying that either source is incorrect. I also feel that maybe we should have had this discussion before removing the sources/information, since you removing the Cracked reference means I no longer know what is sourced and what isn't. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
We're old colleagues and you're responsible and show good judgment and I wouldn't revert you though I think in this case it would be a mistake to re-add it, given that of all the countless histories of comics, no one -- and Gerard Jones (Men of Tomorrow) would have had access to that same flyer -- appears to have given that date except MTV and non-RS sites. That's a red flag to me, and since there's WP:NODEADLINE and it's not critically vital information to understand the subject, I'm hoping you're amenable to working with me to research it and see if we can concretely find a way to say this as fact. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:59, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I'll try to find an alternative to the Cracked article, but I do trust the April 25 date, and with the flyer Argento found, I think that it's kind of on the opposing side to prove otherwise. If you know how to search copyright databases though, please do. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:07, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Well, no, because you're asking me to prove a negative: "Prove it wasn't published on April 25, 1940." The flyer is a solicitation, which WPC guidelines disallow as a reference source. And since MTV is the only place claiming this, that strikes me as WP:FRINGE. I'm curious why the fact that this date appears in no reputable history of comics — no book, not even from DC itself — that this isn't of concern. DC certainly knows this flyer exists — and yet DC itself doesn't give that date. Maybe we'll need to RfC this?--Tenebrae (talk) 23:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
Is there an easily accessible copyright database? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been unable to find one. It's how the pub date for Action #1 was verified, but it's more widely accessible because it was relevant to copyright suits surrounding Superman. No one ever disputed Joker's copyright. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I've found a few other sources, although some of them are of debatable reliability. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2018

Please add him in Narcissism in Fiction. 2601:8C:4500:4211:80:2AFB:7636:37AE (talk) 03:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Thank you, Hiàn (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Joker (Batman)

Why isn't this article titled with (Batman) given there are other Jokers at the dab page? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Not least Joker (comic strip), and others nothing to do with Batman. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:39, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
After long debates both in this page's archives and at other locations, the consensus was that this page is the primary topic for Joker (character). You can always open a new discussion, but I strongly suggest having a strong (new) argument paired with it. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
@Argento Surfer: I looked in archives. You are correct. But it seems some editors were not aware that WP:DISAMBIGUATION guideline does not allow any parenthetically disambiguated term, e.g. (film) (song) etc., to have a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Once a term is disambiguated it must be clear against other topics. As it stands Joker (character) seems to be against the WP:DISAMBIGUATION guideline. Further it seems the vanilla (character) is mainly for use when the series is eponymous with the character, or more rarely, where there is more than one series/franchise for an overlapping character. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:16, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Like I said, you're welcome to open a new discussion. There were a lot of people who were not happy about it being parked at (character). Argento Surfer (talk) 13:46, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
The Joker DC Comics character is the primary topic. The others are nowhere near as notable, and most don't even have articles. It's not unreasonable to expect someone searching for the Joker to be coming here. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 14:35, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Argento, may well do. Darkwarrior actually some do have articles, an guideline states no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for parenthetically dabbed articles. There is no such thing as primary (footballer) primary (character) primary (whatever); the guideline does not allow that. Plus in this case WP:NCVGDAB #7 specifically advises using the series name as a disambiguator. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:40, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree that we should move this article to just Joker. It's overwhelmingly the primary topic (unlike something like Dream (comics) or Penguin (character)). JOEBRO64 20:59, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
It would make more sense to move Joker (playing card) as primary topic than this one; the later is named after the former, after all. Joker (character) has problems with WP:PRECISION for not being totally unambiguous, but at least it follows the conventions of the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (comics) guideline at WP:NCCDAB. Diego (talk) 09:50, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
My preference was always Joker (comics character), since this article is about the comic character specifically. Joker (Batman) is too imprecise, since there are about 14 different comics, tv series, and films sharing that exact title and because Batman isn't the only comic book which features the Joker. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:58, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2018 (UTC)


Joker (character)The Joker – Per WP:THE, he is recognized as "The Joker" in many sources. In the case of prevailing common use, "The" can be used in titles. I'd call this prevailing use, and it is also a more WP:NATURAL name. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Previous request to move to this title at Talk:Joker (character)/Archive 4#Requested move. Dekimasuよ! 18:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    Actually, more recent than that. There was an RM discussion last year as seen here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 18:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    I linked the discussion that was explicitly about moving to the title "The Joker." There have been other subsequent discussions, as you noted. Dekimasuよ! 20:22, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose The playing card is also often referred to with "The" Argento Surfer (talk) 19:01, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
    • As was mentioned by User:ONR, the card is called "Joker". As in, "a Joker card", not "The Joker". If what you are saying is true, it would be located at The Joker (playing card).ZXCVBNM (TALK) 19:35, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
      • Joker (playing card) uses the phrase "the joker" 22 times. It uses "a joker" 3 times. Also, using the current name of a Wikipedia article as evidence for its common name is pretty odd coming from the guy proposing another article be renamed... Argento Surfer (talk) 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
        • Comment (not actually !voting): this is basic grammar—one would also say "a Joker graphic novel" or "a Joker scheme". Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move. The playing card is not often referred to as "The Joker" (as a proper noun including the "the"), so there is no conflict there. ONR (talk) 19:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Argento Surfer. JOEBRO64 19:08, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose per previous discussions. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - As iconic as the character is, they are named after a playing card that is arguably just as applicable. Plus, getting this article from Joker (comics) to Joker (character) came from a lengthy discussion and DAB alterations in itself. DarkKnight2149 22:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose and suggest The Joker (DC Comics) - As for WP:THE issue, I can't see this character as being handled any different than The Doctor (Doctor Who), with the "The" being prevailing common use. I just do not see this character being the primary topic, though, so disambiguation is needed between both other titles and also other characters named "The Joker". For that, I refer to WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers which suggests using the publisher for disambiguation. The Joker (character) and Joker (character) are incomplete disambiguation and should be redirected to the DAB page (Joker#Fictional characters) once all the incoming links are adjusted to point to the article's new title. -- Netoholic @ 03:27, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose but argee with Netoholic's suggestion to move to The Joker (DC Comics). It would match other article titles such as Captain Marvel (DC Comics). Rreagan007 (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose move to The Joker (DC Comics) - Per WP:OTHERSTUFF. Captain Marvel (DC Comics) is likely to be confused with the equally applicable Marvel Universe characters of the same name. There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as (Character). That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called The Joker, a DC graphic novel called Joker, an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated comic strip, and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain. DarkKnight2149 17:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Opposeoriginal move request and also suggestion to move to The Joker (DC Comics). Wikipedia MOS for article titles is very clear that the definite article "The" is not used: Hulk (comics), Flash (comics), Spirit (comics), etc. all follow MOS. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I think "The Joker" should continue to redirect here, but the title should remain the same. I think, per WP:THE#Other uses, "the" should be included only when it is always included with virtually no exceptions. This is the case with The Doctor (Doctor Who), but even just quickly googling "Joker", you'll find a few cases where "the" is omitted": [1]. –IagoQnsi (talk) 01:11, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 April 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. There is a clear consensus against the proposed move. bd2412 T 17:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Joker (character)Joker (DC Comics) – The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named "(The) Joker" listed at Joker#Fictional characters. WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers directs us to use the publisher as the disambiguation when there are multiple characters that use the same name. After fixing links, Joker (character) and The Joker (character) should redirect to the disambig page section. -- Netoholic @ 05:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose to avoid disambiguation with publications called "Joker" from DC Comics. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Those guidelines were revised about a year ago specifically because of all the different Joker articles. The overwhelming consensus through multiple move requests has been (character). We just closed another one a few days ago. Argento Surfer (talk) 16:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
The recent RM was about the inclusion of "The" to the title. This is different. -- Netoholic @ 16:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
You suggested this DAB in the discussion above. It was specifically supported by one and opposed by two. Other comments not directly addressing your suggestion supported the current location. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:29, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
That suggestion included the "The". It is a different recommendation than the one here. -- Netoholic @ 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • @Katolophyromai and Curly Turkey: WP:PRIMARYTOPIC only applies to undisambiguated titles like Joker - not to articles which are disambiguated like this one. Once it is decided that an article is to be disambiguated, then we must follow WP:INCDAB and ensure that the disambiguation doesn't itself remain ambiguous. In this case, there are multiple characters that exist named "Joker", so we must ensure the disambiguation used is clearly referencing the subject. -- Netoholic @ 11:07, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Netoholic: In that case, you should be trying to move the page to "Joker (Batman villian)" rather than "Joker (DC Comics)" since, as others have pointed out above, that title could also refer to various DC comic books entitled Joker. --Katolophyromai (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Netoholic: (a) I don't see where WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says what you're saying; (b) there is no other Joker (character) article to DAB from—we need further disambiguation only when there are multiple articles in conflict. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:09, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - For the precise reasons I opposed this when it was first suggested in the move discussion directly above this one: "There were extensive discussions regarding naming conventions that led to this article being disambiguated as (Character). That is generally the proper disambiguation, especially when there is a DC comic book series called The Joker, a DC graphic novel called Joker, an upcoming film adaptation, an unrelated comic strip, and no character from other publishers called The Joker that's as applicable or easy to be confused with the Batman villain.." DarkKnight2149 17:49, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Support a move away from the current title per WP:INCDAB. Joker (character) is clearly ambiguous per the guideline. This request won't go through, but it is valid. Dekimasuよ! 01:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
@Dekimasu: There is nothing ambiguous about Joker (character), which is actually the proper title per WP:NCCDAB, seeing as he is the only applicable comics character called "The Joker"... Or character in general. This is also the primary page about the character, as Joker in other media and Alternative versions of Joker both branch off of this article. DarkKnight2149 19:55, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
There are over 15 other characters called Joker shown at Joker. Therefore, the current title fails WP:PRECISION, the directive that "titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article." Dekimasuよ! 20:14, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
None of whom are applicable. Nearly all of them are minor characters who don't even have their own articles or are adaptations of this character (which this is the hub article for). As it stands, anyone searching for Joker (character) is almost certainly looking for the Batman villain. DarkKnight2149 21:17, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
None of the characters I referred to is an adaptation of this character. Dekimasuよ! 21:46, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
I already made this point above, Dekimasu: there isn't actually another article on a character named "Joker" (except for th esub-article Joker (The Dark Knight)), and WP does not do preemptive disambiguations. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
There is inconsistency in the guidelines, and I'm not sure why this hasn't been closed already. However, the top of Wikipedia:Disambiguation states, "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts that arise when a potential article title is ambiguous, most often because it refers to more than one subject covered by Wikipedia, either as the main topic of an article, or as a subtopic covered by an article in addition to the article's main topic" (emphasis mine). Further, Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Primary topic when a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name states, "When a disambiguation page lists only one existing article by that name... the normal rules for determining the primary topic still apply. The existing article does not automatically become the primary topic." This does not necessarily indicate that there can be no primary topic for Joker (character) or that this article is not the primary topic, but it is in this light that WP:INCDAB ("When a more specific title is still ambiguous, but not enough so to call for double disambiguation, it should redirect back to the main disambiguation page (or a section of it)") can be read to indicate that we should not use Joker (character). The formulation of the title is "Title (disambiguator)"; the disambiguator is not a part of the title itself, so if there is no primary topic for Joker, there is also ipso facto no primary topic for Joker (ambiguous disambiguator). Most likely, Joker (character) could also be treated under WP:DDAB and made its own disambiguation page. The only indication that we should not disambiguate this way of which I am aware is the one currently being discussed at Talk:One Kiss (song): an RfC result about WP:DABMENTION, here. Dekimasuよ! 11:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In this case we're stuck choosing between imperfect disambiguators. However, I think this is the best bet. I understand Dekimasu's issue about other characters above, but I don't see that any have their own articles, which mitigates the concern somewhat. The proposed title would conflict with things like Joker (graphic novel) and The Joker (comic book) (which themselves have non-optimal disambiguators).--Cúchullain t/c 14:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 25 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is not a consensus to move at this time, and no firm consensus in this discussion as to whether or not this article is about the character as a whole or the comics character, and many opposing did not give specific reasons beyond exasperation. That being said, on the oppose side arguments from concision are relatively strong (they are part of the naming criteria), and as Amakuru pointed out, there is not a consensus as to whether or not the primary topic can have an incomplete disambiguator. As it stands, there is enough opposition to a move that has basis in policy for this to close as not moved. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

  • Post close comments: since two issues were raised on my talk, I'll address them in more detail here. First re: the question on whether this article is about the character: I mentioned it in my close because there was enough discussion about it from my reading that it warranted a mention, but not clear answer in this particular discussion about the title of the page. If there is a pre-existing consensus on it that addresses what should be the content of this page, this RM does not change that, and should not be interpreted as such.
    Second on what not moved means. In RMs, this is the close when the consensus is against the title. No consensus to move is another close that is sometimes used, even if not mentioned in RMCI, and I typically us it when the discussion could go either no consensus or not moved as a way to split the baby.
    In this case I'll expand a bit and point out that there is a consensus against moving the article at this time and that while consensus can change, it would be inadvisable to start a new RM anytime soon. I would recommend at least 3 months cooling off rather than moving into a new title discussion.
    Hopefully this addresses all of the concerns raised. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Joker (character)Joker (DC Comics character) – The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named "(The) Joker" listed at Joker#Fictional characters. WP:NCCOMICS#Between characters of different publishers directs us to use the publisher as the disambiguation when there are multiple characters that use the same name. Adding "character" should address concerns from the last RM that (DC Comics) could refer to publications. After fixing links, Joker (character) and The Joker (character) should redirect to the disambig page section. -- Netoholic @ 19:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Previous close, before the above move review and relisting

The result of the move request was: RESULT: Not Moved. There was a discussion some days ago, all users opposed it and it was closed. The user that started that discussion started this other one, the very same day that one was closed, and with the exact same rationale. All opposes here as well. WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) Cambalachero (talk) 13:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Joker (character) is ambiguous because it could also refer to Joker (The Dark Knight) and because that title could also be used as redirect to any other Joker characters covered in lists or sections of other articles. Per WP:INCDAB, we need to use a more clear disambiguation and then point Joker (character) to the disambiguation page. -- Netoholic @ 04:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Joker (The Dark Knight) is a subarticle of this one, and the other Joker (character) articles don't exist. Wikipedia does not disambiguate from nonexistent articles. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
      • Joker (The Dark Knight) is a film article, not a comics article and not a "subarticle" (whatever that is). The very first line of WP:Disambiguation states that we disambiguate "more than one subject covered by Wikipedia, either as the main topic of an article, or as a subtopic". Topics are "covered" on Wikipedia even if they are in lists or in sections of other articles - being a standalone article is not a requirement. -- Netoholic @ 05:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Is there not a rule against just repeatedly opening move discussions? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:49, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
    • If nothing else, it would be decent to notify everyone who participated in the other two move discussions this month, since this is effectively the same discussion in search of a different outcome. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:17, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: For the reasons stated by other users and myself in the first two proposals. And even if there were articles on the other Jokers, those are minor characters who are nowhere near as pertinent as this character (hence why they don't have articles to begin with). This would still be the primary topic, as anyone searching for Joker (character) is almost definitely looking for the Batman villain. DarkKnight2149 15:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
    • Also: Can we knock it off with the persistent move proposals? When you reach the third in a row, it's pretty damn clear where the consensus stands. DarkKnight2149 15:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
      • comment the April 5 move is unrelated (a "The" issue, instead of a disambiguator name), so it isn't relevant. -- 70.51.203.56 (talk) 05:01, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Relisting comment - as I mentioned in the move review at WP:MRV, I've relisted this because it was not a good contender for a snow close. The proposal was different, it hadn't run for long enough, and then the move review itself became confused by people apparently voting "oppose" to the RM itself. This will go for seven more days, after which a close and possible moratorium can be applied. @Zxcvbnm: @Dekimasu: @Erik: @Argento Surfer: @Curly Turkey: @Old Naval Rooftops: @Darkwarriorblake: @Rreagan007: @Tenebrae: @IagoQnsi: @TheJoebro64: @Katolophyromai: @Cuchullain: @Paine Ellsworth: @SmokeyJoe: you were all pinged or participated in the move review, so please comment and !vote support or oppose on this RM and we can lay this to rest once and for all. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
    This is absurd—the rationale itself was copypasted from the previous MR: "The current page title is ambiguous due to a large roster of other characters named '(The) Joker' ..." Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:24, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
    Yes, but the rationale also includes Adding "character" should address concerns from the last RM that (DC Comics) could refer to publications. as well, and the majority of opposes in the last RM were precisely about that concern, so although it may seem tedious to keep opening new discussions, the assertion that it's identical to the last one is not the case. Absurd or not, let's just see this one out and put the matter to bed once and for all. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 22:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
    Thanks, just awesome—let's teach editors that if they make the same request just enough times, they can get the results they want. They need only one consensus for to overturn any number of consensuses against ... Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, this has been discussed before, and the consensus is to keep the article here. As for the article about an adaptation of the Joker in other media, it's still the same character. See Wikipedia:Content forking. The second article exists only because it was too long to be included here, not because it is a different and unrelated character (the way the Joker is a different character than, for example, Luke Skywalker) Cambalachero (talk) 22:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
  • FFS Oppose, thanks for wasting more time @Amakuru:. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:36, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
  • sigh... Oppose. JOEBRO64 22:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose move (again), and support some form of moratorium for move proposals of this page. These discussions are getting out of hand, and the only way to stop them is to put a moratorium in place. ONR (talk) 22:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Support in principle. It is incorrect to say that Joker (The Dark Knight) is a "subarticle" of Joker (character). It certainly is an offshoot and whatnot, but in terms of organizing topics on Wikipedia, both topics are characters. Therefore "Joker (character)" is ambiguous as to whether or not it refers to the character as a whole or to the one film's character. We are not dealing with any primary topics here, so all secondary topics should be disambiguated from each other. But I know that we're all tired of discussing this, and that the disambiguation page defines all the topics well enough anyway. Perhaps it would help to have standalone articles for the 1966 TV series character as well as the 1989 film character (if enough coverage exists for either), to make the ambiguity more obvious (and further justify addressing it) and at the same time have new article scopes that open new spaces distinct from the very heavy comic book history. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 23:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
    It's self evident that an article on a particular manifestion of a character is a subarticle of the character's base article. Regardless, most people would assume there weren't even an article on that version of the character, and editors have questioned whether such a gratuitous article should even exist. Anyone looking for such an article would not be looking for it at Joker (character), as the base fictional character very obviosuly takes precedence or any incarnation of said character. Let's not make a joke of Wikipedia with this nonsense. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:23, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
    It is only obvious to those who are familiar with the Batman comics and films. The point is, when we strip away any foreknowledge and any add-on descriptions, we have two article titles, "Joker (character)" and "Joker (The Dark Knight)". Both articles are character articles. It is irrelevant whether or not these are connected because we cannot presume knowledge of that connection. Therefore we should get more specific than just "character" in the former. I get that it is obvious and derivative for those who are familiar, but that should not be assumed for all readers. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:08, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
    "It is only obvious to those who are familiar with the Batman comics and film." - Perhaps if we only go by the names of the disambiguations alone. But given that the second sentence to the lead of Joker (The Dark Knight) makes it clear that it's an adaptation of the comics character, I respectfully stand by my point that it's a subarticle of Joker (character). DarkKnight2149 02:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
    Yes, that is the point, to go by the disambiguation terms alone. Here is a more general example of what I mean. We have a notable TV show and a notable episode of the same name from that show, and neither are primary topics. Ignoring the TV naming conventions we do have, if one of these articles is under "Foo (TV)", then it is not clear whether or not the article is for the TV show or the episode, even if the episode is a "subarticle" of the TV show. I do get the Joker connection, but it is a big world with not everyone present (and future) being familiar with any of these topics. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 11:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
    Erik: That makes no sense—(a) a reader not looking for the Dark Knight-specific version of the character will of course default to the (character) article (no specific knowledge is needed to do what is so obvious); and (b) the Dark Knight-specific version of the character remains a DC Comics licenced property, so the proposed DAB fails by your own "Both articles are character articles" argument, as both articles are "DC Comics character" articles. If Joker (The Dark Knight) is causing any sort of problem, why not move that article instead? This one's the unproblematic one. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
    See the "nonsense" that makes "no sense" that I said to Darkknight2149 above. AGF. 11:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
    Your response to DK addresses none of what I just wrote. Did you just ignore it? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Support in principle, for my own part, per my comments in the last request. However, I also oppose opening new discussions when it's apparent they won't gain consensus. If it's clear that the community disagrees, move on and do something else for a while. Dekimasuよ! 00:16, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. Present title has "incomplete disambiguation" and should be so categorized as a redirect to the dab page in accord with the disambiguation guideline. The proposed title addresses the concerns of much of the opposition in previous RMs, so it is hoped that the closer will ignore the opposers in this debate who think it's tedious to continue to garner consensus for the highest and best title and qualifier for this article, and who have no policy- nor guideline-based rationale.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  02:37, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Seriously, the entire comment. I cannot make heads or tails of what you're trying to express. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:30, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The first part of my comment is my rationale, the reason I give for my support of this proposal. The present page title sports a qualifier that is clearly "incomplete" as qualifiers go, and the editing guideline I cited shows us what to do about incomplete qualifiers. The second part of my comment is just a hopeful note to the admin who closes this debate. Hope this helps!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  09:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
(a) How is it incomplete? Joker is a character, and there is no other article on a character named "Joker" that is not a subarticle of this one. (b) This doesn't help—you muttered something about guidelines and policies, and seem to be saying that opposers are opposing against policy (when we've been citing policy), and you made some comment "tedious to continue to garner consensus for the highest and best title and qualifier for this article" that I still find impossible to untangle. On the policy/guidline front, the guidelines are clear that DABs are to be kept maximally abstract, and we are not to DAB from non-existent articles. (character) is exactly what the guidelines call for; (DC Comics character) doesn't appear to solve any problem, especially given that the only other "Joker" article is also a DC Comics character, as I've already explicated. The proposed move neither solves no concrete problem, and solves it exceptionally poorly.
The supporters themselves don't seem to provide any evidence that there's actually a problem this MR would solve. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 09:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Disagree that Joker (The Dark Knight) is about a DC Comics character. It is about a film character that is based upon the DC Comics character. Apples and oranges. The rest is just something you'll have to figure out or ignore. I've explained as much as I can. Be well.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  10:27, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Then you're misunderstanding a few very fundamental things: (a) all incarnations of the character are DC (b) the "DC Comics" DAB was not to DAB the comics incarnation from a non-comics incarnation; "DC Comics" is the name of a company, and the base article is about the fictional character in general, including its film/TV/cartoon/novel/cosplay versions. To reiterate: "Joker" is a property of DC Entertainment (a subsidiary of Warner Bros.), and the Joker (character) article is about that property. That Joker (The Dark Knight) is a subarticle of that is not even up for debate. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:54, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I have no trouble understanding what you've explained, and yet the fact remains that to simply use "(character)" as a qualifier for this article results in incomplete disambiguation. The proposed title solves that problem. We seem to agree that this article needs to have a disambiguator; however, the present disambiguator is not enough, that is, it is "incomplete" and therefore too ambiguous to warrant being part of the title of this article. There is a reader need here, and editors are obligated to fill that need per the editing guideline!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  13:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
I strongly disagree that it's an "incomplete disambiguation". Joker (character) is the hub article for the character in general, not just the original comics character. Other versions of the character even received coverage in the lead. Joker in other media and Alternative versions of Joker are extensions of that article's sections that exist only because there is too much information to fit in the character article. The Dark Knight character is also covered in both Joker (character) and Joker in other media, but that is one of the few specific iterations that is notable enough to have its own article. And all versions of the character, adaptation or otherwise, are the same DC character. As for Joker (comic book) and Joker (graphic novel), those are about publications named after the character, not the character. I think Joker (character) is perfectly complete and precise enough as it is. DarkKnight2149 02:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth: "the fact remains ... "(character)" ... results in incomplete disambiguation": You keep telling us it's "incomplete disambiguation", and you keep declining to tell us how it is in any way incomplete, even after being asked. What is supposed to be ambiguous about it? What is the "reader need" you're talking about? Please be concrete. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:54, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Unbelievable that it even needs an explanation; however, I shall try not to be obtuse. This article is titled Joker (character), which on Wikipedia is unacceptable because Joker (The Dark Knight) is also about the fictional character named "Joker". This means that "character" as a qualifier in the title of this article is in dire need of more disambiguation. I consider your opinion and that of other opposers to be WP:IAR because opposition to this page move goes against the editing guideline for fixing incomplete disambiguations. I'm more than a big fan of breaking the rules; however, that's only when there is very good reason to do so. Nobody in this debate has given a very good reason to ignore the editing guideline. Anytime an article must be qualified by a disambiguating word or phrase, it is because the name of the article by itself is ambiguous enough to confuse readers. It does our readers no good to use a disambiguator that is not complete enough to dispel confusion and reader astonishment. The title of this article is disambiguated only by the word "character", so that disambiguation is not complete. Hope this helps.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  07:30, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
You keep restating things that have already been refuted. Should I keep restating our refutations? As you are in the minority insisting (character) is "incomplete" and that the subarticle is not a subarticle, the onus is on you to demonstrate these things—not to merely assert them. It's obnoxious to insist we're WP:IARing when we've already demonstrated that this article follows the titling and DABbing guidelines. As to "ambiguous"—without some demonstration that some reader at sometime was credibly misled, that's worthy of no more than a facepalm, especially given that Joker (character) appears first in the search hints. If a reader is familiar with Joker, they will know whether (The Dark Knight) is the appropriate DAB; if they don't, the likelihood of them choosing (The Dark Knight) over (character) when the character is what they're looking for (and what appears first) is nil. Suggesting otherwise suggests one has had little experience interacting with humans.
Besides all this, you keep ignoring the fact that the character in The Dark Knight is also a DC Comics character, and thus the proposed DAB is hopelessly broken (aside from being completely pointless). Seriously, how many times do I have to repeat this? You can't ignore this problem away. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Nobody has refuted my argument to my satisfaction or I would have changed my !vote. Your endless redundancies and repetitions don't do your argument any good, so you would be well-advised to cease and desist. And the character in The Dark Knight is definitely and decidedly NOT a DC Comics character. Instead it is a fictional film character that is based upon the DC Comics character. Again, apples and oranges, which clearly shows the need for more complete disambiguation of this article title!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  08:15, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth: In other words, you'll simply ignore the concrete arguments you've been presented with. Not a convincing way to debate, and doesn't seem to be moving this discussion any closer to a consensus to move.
"decidedly NOT a DC Comics character"—not a "DC comics" character, but yes, a "DC Comics" character, and you can't wish that away. Regardless, as you've been told but will inevitably ignore again, this article is not about the character's comic-book appearances. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. If you can't even accept the facts, you're simply wasting everyone's time here. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Right back atcha! The "fact" is that both this article and The Dark Knight article are about the Joker, which in this article is a notable DC Comics character, and which in the DK article is a notable film character. They are both "characters" and they are both notable enough to have their own articles here on Wikipedia. So the "fact" is that they must be completely disambiguated from each other. The fact is that you have asserted PTOPIC, but you have not said why this article should be accepted as the PTOPIC. Therefore, the fact is that you have given absolutely no good reason why editors should ignore the editing guideline. The reasons you do give are not good enough, it's really as simple as that. I can see that you are heavily invested in this subject of comics, all aspects of the subject. I suggest you apply that same self-investment to this project and its guidelines!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  01:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
WP:NCCOMICS outright says "Articles primarily about characters appearing in a comic should use the phrase (character)" (going into more detail). That's not WP:IAR. And they are all the exact same character, not separate characters with the same inspiration. I second that the only thing that separates the comics character from the Dark Knight character is continuity and portrayal, which is purely WP:INUNIVERSE. DarkKnight2149 09:26, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Seems you're suggesting to redisambiguate Joker (The Dark Knight) and make it instead Joker (The Dark Knight character). I guess that must be done if we are to strictly follow the NCCOMICS guideline, correct? The main separation as I see it is that the Joker in this article is primarily about the DC Comics character, and the Joker in The Dark Knight is, as you say, a separate and distinct portrayal of a fictional film character that is only based upon the comics character. Again, apples and oranges – they're both fruit, but they taste different. This article clearly needs more disambiguation than just the word "character". To add more disambiguation to the word "character" would still be in line with the NCCOMICS guideline, wouldn't it?  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  17:45, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: "The main separation as I see it is that the Joker in this article is primarily about the DC Comics character, and the Joker in The Dark Knight is, as you say, a separate and distinct portrayal of a fictional film character that is only based upon the comics character." - You keep saying that, often with no additional argument to support it besides a moot "apples and oranges" idiom. But multiple users have already explained to you with different explanations that they are all the DC Comics character. And now you are suggesting that the movie Jokers (such as Jack Nicholson and Heath Ledger) are the same character, but they are somehow separate from all the other Jokers? I'm sorry, but WHAT??? The only thing separating the Mark Hamill Joker from the Heath Ledger Joker from the hundreds of comic Jokers is continuity and writer interpretation. The difference is WP:INUNIVERSE at best. You may insist otherwise, but the consensus does not appear to be in your favour in this regard. DarkKnight2149 00:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
You are saying it as if being based upon was just a minor and trivial thing that we could dismiss so casually. It is not, it is a very important and defining aspect of the character. Apples and oranges? No, apples and apples. Cambalachero (talk) 18:39, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
All I am saying is that we have two articles about the same character. While one article is about one type of the character, the other article is about a different type of the character. Both types of the character are notable enough to have their own article here on Wikipedia, therefore both articles must be completely disambiguated from each other. They are not completely disambiguated from each other at present, and this requested move solves that problem. That's all I'm saying, so please refrain from the repetitious posts about things that are not good enough reasons for editors to ignore the WP:INCDAB guideline. Thank you!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  01:39, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
That's wrong. We do not have two articles about the same character. We have an article about the character in general, and another about a specific version of the character. Cambalachero (talk) 14:37, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
You say I'm wrong, then you write about how correct I've been.
We have an article about the character in general, and another about a specific version of the character. (my bold)
Two character articles. The DK Joker article is already sufficiently disambiguated from this one; however, this article is by no means completely disambiguated from the DK Joker article.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  14:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
You're really not giving the impression that you're arguing in good faith when you play with people's words like this. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:45, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth, and on a point of order, the assertion here that there is a guideline saying primary topic may not be established on an incomplete disambiguator is incorrect. Some users feel it should be, but the rule has never establishsed a consensus. Thriller (album) is the most notable example where the rule could be applied and hasn't, since that is a primary redirect to the M. Jackson album. See WP:PDAB for the history of the debate.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:59, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Half hearted support - There have been issues in the past about this article being weighted toward the comic version of the character as opposed to all his incarnations. In those, I said I'd be fine with (comics character). This proposal is close enough. I don't think it's necessary, but it's not wrong. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
    Argento Surfer: a comics-focused article would be a sub-article of the base Joker (character) article regardless. You're proposing a new article. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:56, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose, again. This is, what, the third time for essentially the same move request? There is no other widely known character called the Joker. Yes, there's a playing-card symbol, the Joker, but that's not a character any more than the kings, queens and jacks are characters. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • To Tenebrae: this RM actually addresses concerns brought out by opposers in the previous RM, so it a) is not essentially the same request, and b) as long as it's not the same request, editors can make new requests like this one to try and garner consensus for the proposed new and different page title. There is nothing that says they cannot do that, and some here have tread on WP:AGF issues in regard to their responses to other !votes and rationales.
Other editors who oppose have made this a PTOPIC issue, and I'll admit that the counters to that (in the previous RM) were weak, especially considering what Amakuru said above about the ongoing debate. What I noticed about those editors is that while they cited and asserted that PTOPIC applies, they seem to have forgotten to show why PTOPIC is an appropriate guideline citation. In other words, they have not shown that Joker (character) meets the following criteria:
  1. A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
  2. A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
If opposers could show that this article meets those criteria, then I would seriously consider changing my support to an oppose !vote. Supporters on the other hand have repeatedly cited that same guideline in a different section, WP:INCDAB, which applies to the qualifier of this title, "character". Are you certain that this is not an incomplete disambiguation that needs further qualification to be clearly distinct from the film character at Joker (The Dark Knight)? The film character is essentially the same character as the DC Comics character because it is based upon the character from DC; however, aren't they separate and distinct articles about different subjects? and aren't they both fictional "characters"?  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  18:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid I don't understand why I have been singled out when other editors have expressed the same concern about the multiple move requests.
I believe the Joker movie characters are all based on the DC Comics character. We don't seems to have multiple Spider-Man articles devoted to Spider-Man (Sam Raimi trilogy), Spider-Man (Marc Webb films), Spider-Man (MCU), Spider-Man (1970s TV series), etc. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • "aren't they separate and distinct articles about different subjects?". Short answer: No, they are not. They are only different in-universe, as the comics and the films have their own continuities. As an intellectual property and narrative device, it is the same character, licenced and used in several media, but it's still the same one. Same goes for Batman, and that's why the films and animated series always have that line "Batman created by Bob Kane": even if adapted and with some narrative changes, it's still the same character. We do not have two articles because they are two different characters, it's just because one is a content fork of the other. This one is not the article about the Joker in comic books, it's the article about the whole Joker "franchise", and there is a high focus on comics because that's the original media. Note as well that we have The Lord of the Rings (the book) with no DAB and The Lord of the Rings (film series), not "(book)" and "(film series)", even if the film series got worldwide recognition of its own and many people know just the films. Written in policy or not, a work and adaptations of the same name are not considered different topics for a DAB. Cambalachero (talk) 01:16, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • it's the article about the whole Joker "franchise", and there is a high focus on comics - Sure, but even within comic continuities, there are articles about individual incarnations (Iron Man vs Iron Man (Ultimate Marvel character)). The only difficulties in this case are that this Joker is not a primary topic for "joker", and its also not the only character named that. No one is saying the content of this article should change (as an overview of the character that originated in DC Comics), just that the name needs to be clear about the topic. -- Netoholic @ 05:06, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • It is DABbed because it's not the only "Joker" article, but it is the only "Joker (character)" article. The other "Joker (character)"s do not (and probably will not) have articles to DAB from. This is a solution in search of a problem. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 08:07, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
To netoholic: yes, comic books have many continuities, and sometimes a specific version of a character has standalone notability for a fork article. Nothing of that counters my argument: in-universe information aside, it is always the same character. That's why this article, which has an overview of the character in its full, has a section with a summary of Alternative versions of Joker, as well as a Joker in other media. Cambalachero (talk) 12:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • To Tenebrae: If I have "singled" you out, it is because of our past encounters and my respect for your opinion. In this case I think you're wrong; however, that's just my own absurd opinion. Your taking the opposing viewpoint in this did make me step back and reexamine the details. Didn't mean to give you the idea that you were being in any way placed under the magnifying glass. Thank you, and Best of Everything to You and Yours!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  07:13, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose on grounds already extensively discussed in previous RMs, (character) is concise and the primary topic for characters called "Joker". I will add that I personally think that the "incomplete disambiguation" guideline is over-strictly applied by some editors and there should be a number of commonsense exceptions anyway, so even to the extent the current disambig is arguably incomplete, it is not some kind of drastic rule violation and should not override the many valid reasons to keep the article where it is. Tricky RMs routinely have to balance guidelines which give inconsistent / competing advice. SnowFire (talk) 19:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • "Character" is more concise than just "Joker"; however, Wikipedia has two articles about the Joker character. There are two notable renditions of the Joker character. Both of these articles, this one and the Dark Knight article, should be completely disambiguated from each other, and presently they are not. You also invoke PTOPIC for this article; however, you don't show why this article is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term, and why this article is significant over the long term because it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with the Joker. Those two criteria are used to determine whether a subject is primary. Please show how this article meets those criteria.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  01:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Jesus Christ, Paine Ellsworth, this has gotten beyond obnoxious. The Joker (character) article is not about a "notobale rendition" of the character—it is the base article for the character in general, covering its representations in all media. The lead itself links to six actors who have portrayed or voiced the character! Worse—you've been told this all already. Repeatedly. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:20, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
  • It's very clear that your WP:BADGERING has gone beyond what even I will tolerate. Please cease and desist, and pick up a copy of the guideline that explains how to disambiguate two distinct "character" articles. Thank you in advance for never again calling me by my "real" name. My father prefers that I remain anonymous.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  14:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
    • How does a person respond to gibberish? Why are you even here, if not to exasperate? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:11, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
  • You seem to be responding well enough. You have tried very hard to dominate this debate with your frequent badgering. You've been asked to stop, just as much for your own sake as for that of others, because such anti-AGF on your part does absolutely nothing for either your argument or your credibility. For your own sake at least, please stop trying to lord it over others as if you knew everything there is to know.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  02:37, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Read: "Stop calling me out, already." Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:25, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose or move to The Joker, that fictional white-faced goon who's the primary antagonist in the Batman franchise who might hate Bats but might also be secretly sexually attracted to him, or so Frank Miller thought, per WP:CONCISE and lack of need to DAB. Ribbet32 (talk) 05:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Not WP:PRECISE enough. Should be The Joker (fictional character, anarchist, nihilist, serial killer, mass murderer, occasional harmless prankster, and supervillain clown who's the primary antagonist in the Batman franchise, originating in comic books but also appearing in every other form of media, who might hate Bats but might also be secretly sexually attracted to him, or so Frank Miller, Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, and Rocksteady thought, but also hates all of his sidekicks out of jealousy; Who knows what's going on with that, right?) Only then will the readers know which "Joker" the article is about. Otherwise, they'll just confuse him with various sub-articles, one article about a film adaptation of the exact same character that has a DAB clearly indicating that it's not about the character in general, or any of the very minor niche characters that don't have articles but are briefly mentioned on the disambiguation page. Also, if this proposal fails, those in opposition of Joker (character) are strongly advised to keep opening move proposals. One of them will eventually succeed. DarkKnight2149 19:08, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Mocking of this process is unwelcome. -- Netoholic @ 20:44, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
  • They've kinda got a point, though... JOEBRO64 20:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Pile on oppose. Enough time has been wasted, without anyone ever describing how the proposed move would benefit the readers, and how could anyone be genuinely confused about the current setup. WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:IAR beat the WP:INCOMPLETEDAB (whose applicability has not even been conclusively proven) any time of the day. No such user (talk)
  • The applicability of WP:INCOMPLETEDAB happens to be based upon the existence of a second "character" article. Your rationale seems to deny the existence of the Joker (The Dark Knight) notable film-character article. That article title, "Joker", is the same as the title of this article, and yet is completely disambiguated from this article. Can you say the same for this article? Is this article disambiguated completely enough from The Dark Knight film-character article? Is the qualifier, "character" complete enough to disambiguate this article from the article on the film character?  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  12:41, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
It has been reasonably disputed that The Dark Knight character is a distinct from the one described in this article, and therefore it's just a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE spinoff. Even putting that aside, WP:INCOMPLETEDAB is a pretty obscure and lame guideline (does it really matter whether we have a "primary topic" among disambiguated ones?), whose application or non-application does not bring much added value to the reader either way, and hardly worth bickering about. Bickering about it through three RMs and at least one MR certainly deserves an entry in WP:LAME. No such user (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
You're right, and I don't think we should bicker; however, when an editor makes their responses so full of LAME referrals, especially about WP guidelines that constitute the consensus of the community, the hair on my neck begins to rise. No the DK character is basically the same character as the Joker in this article, it just appears in a different medium. And you don't think that needs further disambiguation? To just qualify this Joker as a character, is that complete enough disambiguation from the other notable rendition of the Joker? the one in the DK article? Not likely.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  00:33, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
"just appears in a different medium"—gibberish. This article covers every medium, as it is about the character in general, as a number of editors have repeatedly repeated over and over again, repeatedly. WP:IDHT is a blockable offense. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Stop with the threats, Curley. Continually editing against community consensus in article space may sometimes be blockable, but good faith talk page comments certainly are not. On the issue itself, I think it's fairly clear that the Joker described here and the one in the Dark Knight article are the same dude, as evidenced by coverage of Ledger et al here. That makes that one a child article of this one, and hence arguably not a contender for the "(character)" disambiguator in its own right.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:07, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Amakuru: stonewalling a discussion with relentless WP:IDHT is most definitely behaviour that has resulted in blocks—I do not bring it up lightly. It's one thing to have different opinions—we all do—but Paine Ellsworth's behaviour is not the mere expression of a differing opinion. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 11:16, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
Then it looks like we'll all have to be blocked! gobble gobble!  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  13:13, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. In this case we're stuck with non-optimal disambiguation choices, and I don't see this proposed one as an improvement. As before, I think the fact that no other character named "Joker" has an article mitigates the WP:INCDAB concerns. Given that Joker (The Dark Knight) is a variant of this character and covered here, I don't see it as an obstacle to the current disambiguation.--Cúchullain t/c 14:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Arby break

  • Comment. So far, no opposer has been able to explain why the title of this article, which is only qualified by "character", should be the title of any article. "Joker (character)" shouldn't even redirect to this article, because it could just as easily redirect to Joker (The Dark Knight). The title of this article should redirect to the disambiguation page. That's the long-term community consensus on the subject, and I hope the closer will give that fact deliberate consideration.  Paine Ellsworth  put'r there  00:52, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
    • No, we've explained in exhaustive detail, and your dismissal of everything every opposer has said up to this point—and bizarre and uncited claim about "long-term community consensus on the subject"—borders on trolling. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:53, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
      • Redirecting (character) to a DAB is a terrible idea. Titles should get readers to what they want as quickly as possible. Do you really think the number of readers looking for the Dark Knight character article or any of the minor miscellaneous Joker characters dug up by Netoholic is significant compared to the ones looking for this comic villain? This seems like a solution in search of a problem. Argento Surfer (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 17 May 2018

his real name is jack napiear 2405:204:3227:CE03:BD3C:953F:73CE:F0C1 (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the Joker has multiple and conflicting origin stories (even in-universe), so he does not really have a "name", besides simply "Joker". See 15 Wildly Different Origin Stories For The Joker. Cambalachero (talk) 17:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Joker (The Dark Knight)

Closed by Mikeblas below without merge. Related tags removed. DarkKnight2149 17:31, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The only major difference that could possibly be worth noting between TDK edition and the main page is film plotline, and even that plot could easily be discussed within a paragraph in the main page without losing anything of encyclopedic value. Having multiple pages for what otherwise is basically the same character quite frankly is thinly veiled fancruft no matter how detailed a page gets (which was probably made by some overzealous fan of The Dark Knight) and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. Wikipedia is supposed to be a professional encyclopedia, not something as lenient as a Batman/DC Comics fansite, where having multiple Joker pages would be more appropriate. Sorry to the DC Comics fans, but there's honestly no good reason not to merge these pages as per WP:Content forking#Redundant content forks. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Joker in other media or The Dark Knight (film) from where the info is largely duplicated should be your first options, not here. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 08:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I'd also be fine with merging to either of those if people are more comfortable with that. Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The Dark Knight's version of the Joker has been covered extensively by reliable sources to the point where he is notable enough for his own article, although the page definitely could use some improvements (I actually have plans to work on it). Furthermore, we have pages for several TV/film versions of comic book characters, such as the MCU's version of Iron Man and Smallville's versions of several different DC characters (some of which are GAs). JOEBRO64 12:26, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • That's being too lenient. First of all, it doesn't matter how many references discuss the character; that does nothing to hide the fact that it's overall the same person as this Joker. Secondly, WP:OTHERSTUFF is irrelevant here and honestly not a convincing point, though MCU Iron Man shouldn't have his own page either and was likely made by an overly eager fan. Same probably goes for Smallvile. Did you not read my point on how Wikipedia isn't supposed to be like a Batman/DC fansite? Having multiple Joker pages is completely unnecessary when there's so much overlap between them. Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • My point is that notability isn't determined by similarities between topics so we don't just merge articles because they're similar (and if we did, then Wikipedia would be a lot smaller...). There's too much information about The Dark Knight's Joker (portrayal, characterization, inspiration, etc.) to fit here, even if both are based on the same basic character. I've also looked over the Joker (The Dark Knight) page and virtually the only similarity with Joker (character) it holds is the description of his appearance. JOEBRO64 14:59, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I said major difference and worth noting for film plots. Everything other difference is negligible. Other details added to try to make them look different was probably inserted by TDK fans attempting to hide similarities and fancruft. One cannot reasonably assert it isn't largely a duplicate at its core plus WP:REDUNDANTFORK (which I linked above) states we shouldn't have multiple pages for what's basically the same subject. Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:11, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Support merge to Joker in other media. Let's face it. People want this article to be around because it was an awesome and iconic media portrayal role. But it was an one time role. The article focuses on execution and that's about it. It got positive media reception and reaction but so did Jack Nicholson' Joker and DCAU Joker. (Also Leto's role when it comes to mixed reviews). Its got good info but it still would be better in improving Joker in other media IMO. Jhenderson 777 16:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

That would also be perfectly viable, and you do bring up good points on one-time-only roles as well as other portrayals of the character. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - This has actually been discussed more than once in the past. Unlike the majority of specific incarnations of comic characters, the Dark Knight portrayal of Joker has actually received enough third party coverage, is different enough from the previous incarnations, and has had a big enough impact on cinema to be independentally notable. Aside from the surface level observation that Joker (The Dark Knight) is an adaptation of the comics character, this doesn't come close to qualifying as "redundant". The notability hardly comes from plotline or WP:FANCRUFT, and Jhenderson777's unsubstantiated assumptions of other editors almost borders on WP:BADFAITH. If this was about articles of lesser notability, such as Clark Kent (Smallville) or James Gordon (Gotham), perhaps SNUGGUMS would have a point. And as pointed out above, Joker in other media should have been the primary target of the ill-justified suggested move. DarkKnight2149 00:47, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I assume no bad edits on anyone. Especially you. You are a fine editor! Reliable third party sources are on every comic book film character to come out. But most of the topic can either be placed on the film article or in other media with improvement on there. The only reason why he could have his own article is that he's the most critically praised villain. Although one could argue with that very reason that Thanos film version and Loki film version could have their own article or better yet Jack's Joker and Chris Reeve's Superman (both noted by the American Film Institute with that reason among others) can be compared as important or more important. Also these characters you mentioned are not "less notable". That's very subjective. @Bignole: already explained why the Clark Kent of Smallville is indeed notable to have its own article. Same goes for Arrowverse's Flash and maybe even Gotham's James Gordon. Also at least Tony Stark has appeared in multiple film adaptions. The thing is we are not losing anything my merging the character info. He is still an adaption of the Joker. Just like Jack, Hamill etc. etc. which are all notable by third party sources but would still be content forks on the in other media page.Jhenderson 777 01:12, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
Not "ill-justified" in the slightest. As an obvious fan of the movie as well as DC in general, that's probably skewing your judgement here and making you view this through the eyes of a fan rather than an unbiased perspective, especially with the blatant double standards of asserting this incarnation warrants an article unlike other famous portrayals when in reality we only need one page for the basic character. Multiple pages for one character is very needlessly repetitive and I'm not going to pretend otherwise even if you do. The sheer number of good sources that cover this version of him or their depth is entirely moot when they're by extension general Joker coverage. We aren't supposed to be Batman/DC Comics Wikia. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:39, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
SNUGGUMS, I should probably clarify that when I said "ill-justified", I meant in terms of the explanation given. I do think that we need more of a reason to merge, especially when most editors here (at the moment) see it as a legitimate content fork rather than redundant fan service, though it could use some rewrites. And no, I always try to maintain NPOV. Even when I am providing content for articles on sequels I despise (such as Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation), my first area of concern is reflecting the sources in a non-slanted manner. Lastly, as friendly advice, I want to point out that replying to every comment can be interpreted by some users as WP:BLUDGEON, though that probably wasn't your intention since there are only six votes as I am typing this. DarkKnight2149 21:19, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
No there most certainly wasn't any intention to bludgeon but I will say sorry if it ever comes off as such to anyone. Regardless, my point wasn't that you were inserting bias into articles, but that clearly being a huge fan of TDK makes you more naturally inclined to defend the page's existence and evidently prevents you from seeing the overlap when only looking at the core features. Don't get me wrong as I thought it was a fantastic watch myself, but I'm not so invested that it keeps me from viewing it through an unbiased and professional perspective rather than what fansites like Wikia would opt for when maintaining separate pages. It sadly doesn't look like one can say the same for you when you're being too lenient in asserting it should be kept. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:29, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There's nothing in that article that could reasonably be merged with this one and maintain balance. If the article can't stand on its own, it should be merged into The Dark Knight (film). Regardless, this is the wrong forum for such a discussion. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:20, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • You must've overlooked how I said plot was the only major difference that could be worth noting and how it could be contained here within a paragraph. However, I'd have no objections with merging into the movie page or Joker in other media as previously suggested. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
SNUGGUMS: You must've overlooked where I said this talk page is the wrong forum for a merge discussion. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:17, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
No, I definitely noticed that, but don't see any how this could be the wrong page unless it gets changed to solely focusing on a merge to the film page. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
SNUGGUMS: (a) the merge isn't about this article (b) there's no way it'll be merged into this article (at least two other articles are far, far better candidates). There's no justification for the discussion to be here. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 00:32, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This a clear case of a legitimate Wikipedia:Content forking. Not all alternative versions of characters deserve articles of their own, but Dark Knight's Joker is one of those who does. The article already establishes the specific notability. Cambalachero (talk) 03:32, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • No it most certainly doesn't (especially when stripped of excess detail) given how alike the page is at its core other than movie plot. It's too lenient to let more than one character page exist when a singular page is all a professional site needs. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:11, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Have you actually read that article? The movie plot is minimal, just the basic needed. Most of the article is about out-of-universe information: performance, development, reception, etc. Cambalachero (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Of course I have, and only reception out of those things could possibly be needed in here or any other potential merge target now that I think further about it, and even that isn't such a major character difference compared to plotline. Everything else was probably added to try disguising the fact that having multiple articles is fancruft. No prose or sheer number of sources can change that. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
    • And none of that has anything to do with this article. Can we move the discussion elsewhere? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:30, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
  • You seem to have contradicted yourself when I outright say it should be merged to here, the movie, or other media page while Curly Turkey opted to merge into movie page if anywhere and Cambalachero opposes any merging. I'm not sure what you were going for here but personally can't see any convincing reason why it shouldn't be merged. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:35, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
I apologize; I read "One cannot reasonably assert it isn't largely a duplicate at its core plus WP:REDUNDANTFORK (which I linked above) states we shouldn't have multiple pages for what's basically the same subject" and I interpreted that to mean we shouldn't fork from Joker (character). I've crossed you out in my post and I apologize. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:06, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) To clarify: I have not supported merging with anything. I've stated only that a merge with this article would be inappropriate, thus a merge discussion should happen elsewhere. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


Closing. I don't see much support for a merger, so I've removed the related tags. -- Mikeblas (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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